Wheat Germ article... [Archive] - Koi Reflections Forums

Terri

01-10-2006, 11:57 AM

Hi Sandi :-)

The jist of the article wasn't knocking Wheat Germ food but mulling over the fact that we (hobbyists) seem to have developed this 'idea' that we must switch to Wheat Germ come fall and start with it in spring - following seasonal temperature changes... we've all heard and read this tid-bit of information.

Mr. Neaves discusses the make up of WG food and over all protein available in all manufactured koi foods, which goes along with digestion of animal proteins verses plant protiens - as well as charbohydrate levels needed in winter.
Proteins are basically the building blocks for koi health and growth but can not be 'simply' digested, they must be broken down into amino acids. Neaves article states that quote - "When vegetable protien sources and animal protien sources are analyzed, they are composed of the same amino acids - only the proportions and levels differ. There are not completely different amino acids in each of them. What is interesting is that while vegetable protien sources contain some of the amino acids needed for koi, they are deficient in amino acids levels and profiles needed." WG koi foods that we use also have animal protien mixed in them, usually in the form of fish meal. This gives the over all protien levels in the WG food listed ont he packaging. Most WG food have 32% to 34% protien.

gotta finish this later...

Sandi_W

01-10-2006, 12:03 PM

Terri,

Thanks. Good simple explanation for me to understand. :wink:

Sandi

Jackie Ramo

01-10-2006, 01:33 PM

Thanks Terri

I've never understood the big push for wheat germ at 34% protein when regular food is 37%, that 3% difference didn't spell sudden death of all my fish to me. Especially when the fish really regulate their own intake, or at least my fish do. As the water cools they are less hungry and I therefore feed less, seems to me this simple action cuts down the amount of protien they take in without switching foods.

For at least 10 years I never switched food and never lost a fish over winter, then I read that I should so did. This year I did not switch as wheat germ was sold out. Fish seem to be fine down there and the ones inside seem just fine as well. To make matters worse, in spring and late fall I tend to feed just protien in the way of worms, bugs etc. This is very very light feeding usually of the smaller fish who remain more active than the large. Even now the babies outside are nibbling algae which I am sure is full of bugs.

Ian

01-10-2006, 08:35 PM

I dunno Jackie, I can't see what the hubub is about feeding protien food higher than 32 to 34%. The wheatgerm foods have veggie matter as the majority of summer foods do not. I find a lot less waste with wheatgerm and floating poop with many other foods. I believe they assimilate the food better because of the plant matter(mmmm we eat our veggies). I'm not talking about the cheap stuff! Hikari wheatgerm smells more fishy than any other food I have smelt. Feed it year round and suppliment with other foods here and there and you won't regret it.

Kay

01-10-2006, 08:36 PM

When, if ever. is it advisable to use antibiotic laced koi food? Is it ever a good idea, like in the springtime to try to protect them when their immune systems are at low ebb and the bad as well as good bacteria levels in the pond are rising? Since it's systemic does it have any benefit or is it like giving antibiotics to people, overuse when unnecessary can cause resistant bacterial strains? Are these foods just a waste of money or used appropriately are they a good thing?
Kay

Terri

01-10-2006, 09:43 PM

Since it's systemic does it have any benefit or is it like giving antibiotics to people, overuse when unnecessary can cause resistant bacterial strains? Are these foods just a waste of money or used appropriately are they a good thing?
KayFirst question - you answered yourself... there is no benefit to using antibiotic food when there is no illness to treat.
Second question - If purchased for just cause they can be of good use, in conjuction with other treatments dependant on the illness... not really enough to use as a 'stand alone' treatment.

Terri

01-10-2006, 09:48 PM

When, if ever. is it advisable to use antibiotic laced koi food? Is it ever a good idea, like in the springtime to try to protect them when their immune systems are at low ebb and the bad as well as good bacteria levels in the pond are rising? KayFirst question - It is only recommended if the fish is diagnosed with a bacterial infection. Again, the medicated food is not the only, nore should it be the first, line of defence. Dips and injectibles are more effective.
Second question - Short answer,... no :grin:

Terri

01-10-2006, 10:06 PM

Back to WG... try and finish what I started before I have to get the kids into bed :grin:

Carbohydrate requirements in winter... well we know that carbohydrates are a form of energy - and in cold(er) water koi do not need much as they are less active. Neaves states that carbohydrates are one of the ingredients that 'binds' the pellets and also mentions that with a lower protein food there is a higher level of carbs, and vice versa - higher protein lower carbohaydrate levels. I guess he's saying why feed a WG food with higher carbs levels in winter since the koi do not need the energy source....

Mr. Neaves conclusion statements basically state that the need to switch to a WG based food is 'scientifically unfounded', pretty much a myth. He mentions that it is fine to continue to use what ever food you feed(as in a well balanced diet) just do so in much smaller amounts at lower water temperatures(meaning above 50F or 10C).

ok, kids have to go to bed now... later :-)

Jackie Ramo

01-10-2006, 10:48 PM

Carbohydrates in people is a fast energy and protien a slow one, not sure the same is for fish.

Ian, if you had not over fed your fish all that Hikari food, your lovely and very charming wife would have had some to sell me :frisbee:

Sandi_W

01-10-2006, 11:29 PM

Terri,

Thanks for taking the time to explain the article. It makes sense. So does Ian's statement.

Sandi

luke frisbee

01-11-2006, 12:11 AM

from a basic understanding of nutrition, animal anatomy, and physiology, and a logical application of the rules Koi should be given high quality protein in small amounts over the winter.
That's the plain and simple truth...
protein is easily assimilated once it is physically reduced to a liquid. protein is needed to maintain the organs of an organism and can not be produced in their complete sequences by any higher animal...they must be EATEN. When they are not the organs slowly dissolve.
All the chemicals produced in the body for metabolism and immunity require Protein. if the proteins are not avaialble the immune response is depressed.
maybe the rocket scientists have this nfigured out..Maybe what makes sense isn't really how the body works?
Are you stupid enough to believe them?

Reduced quantities of high quality protein are a sensible choice for even severe fasting of koi.

Jackie Ramo

01-11-2006, 12:23 AM

I think the question is not whether protien or not protien but plant protien or animal protien

Terri

01-11-2006, 05:45 PM

Luke I agree.. to an extent given our differing climates ;-)

WG foods have a decent protien percentage, I don't believe they need more than this going to and coming out of winter.

We use Wheatgerm as a staple - through summer we mix it up with higher protien foods and the occational treat of fresh foods. The amount food given is dependant on temperature.. doesn't matter if the koi BEG, if the water is below or above what we deem reasonable feeding temps - they get nothing :grin:

I totally agree with Ian(surprised?) about digestion and wastes produced when feeding a quality WG food. We use Hikari but I'm sure the other brands of quality WG foods are comparible.

While the Neaves article suggested that switching to WG based foods isn't necessary - I won't disagree completely,... but I do think that what a WG food provides in spring and fall is more benefical to the koi than that of a good staple higher animal protien food.

luke frisbee

01-11-2006, 08:02 PM

terri you are wrong.

Terri

01-11-2006, 08:07 PM

So Lukie, tell me why.... I can take being 'wrong' but back it up.

luke frisbee

01-11-2006, 08:09 PM

feeding less volume is good.
But wheatgerm doesn't have the balance of amino acids that are needed to build and maintain organ systems.....if enough amino acids are available to maintain the fish's tissues then there is "waste" in the form of the extra amino acids that were not needed in the amounts in WG.
If you feed the fish a fish sourced protein then the amino acids are available in the right percentages; All you have to do is feed the right minimal amount.
You don't have a chance to get it close to right when you use WG.
And another concern should be the digestibility of WG, WG has a large fat component, and it is bound in cellulose....Fish or shrimp based protein is less fatty and easier to assimilate.
Right now all I am feeding are bits of shrimp...not even enough to maintain the fish...just enough to slow down lean tissue loss.

Terri

01-11-2006, 08:24 PM

If the food was simply wheatgerm then yes I agree with what you are saying... but it's not. There are other ingredients besides WG, what those are depends on the brands I suppose, but there is a degree of fish source protien in wheatgerm food. It has been said that plant protien is not as easily assimilated(to use Ian's word), I suppose that may be true to some extent, but if so why is it that we see our koi turn to grazing on algea in the fall/winter/spring more readily than in summer? Need for a different source of protien?

I'm not trying to argue that WG MUST be fed spring/fall, I think it's a good food to feed anytime of year.

Wish I had saved all those threads on NI when Thom was talking about food/digestion/blood test....

luke frisbee

01-11-2006, 09:05 PM

Can koi be grazing on the algae in the other months because A)there is so much algae in the Summer that they get their fill of it before you see them working it over B) there is so much food available in the Summer that they eat better stuff than Algae.

and if my Argument about WG food not being the best choice can only be disproved by stating that their is a QUALITY source of FISH based protein in the WG food then it should stand to reason that the WG is a gimmick and is not a good addition to any food.

luke frisbee

01-11-2006, 09:08 PM

i also only feed the fish shrimp because the koi can graze on algae...I feel as though they are getting all the needed nutrients, just less calories

Jackie Ramo

01-12-2006, 12:17 AM

Are we now back to feeding clean protein ie: shirmp, fake crab meat, worms and bugs? Along with greens ie: kale, broccoli, zuc, etc? A few fruits orange, mango and the like? A handful of clay a week for minerals?

Having spent the last couple of years researching dog nutrition (and no i am not expert or even knowledgable) over processed food is not right for my dogs IMO, is over processed foods the right choice for my wet pets?

luke frisbee

01-12-2006, 07:28 PM

I ain't willing to argue much about what people feed their koi based on anecdotal information. I just told ya what is LOGICAL.
people gotta fool people just so they can make a living...i feed good pellet food for growth when the water warms.

Terri

01-12-2006, 08:03 PM

Luke you are also in a different 'zone' than we are - and might I say in more ways than one :twisted: Why we feed what we do can vary - different climates.

I had a somewhat interesting discussion today with a baker about WG, he also happens to be a koi keeper. Maybe he'll pop in here and comment....?

Luke I'm all for feeding a well rounded diet to our koi, good quality food - commercial pellets and fresh grocery bought items, even worms out of the garden. Koi are omnivores,... WG germ is just another form of plant protien used in place of what isn't available to them in a man made hole.

Luke, you're in the health care biz... surely you can agree that wheat germ has nutritional value...? Or is what you are trying to say is that WG koi foods are a waste of money and of no real benefit for our koi...?

luke frisbee

01-12-2006, 09:55 PM

WG was a gimmick in the health food arena before the "koi professionals" started touting and making it.
the concentration of nutrition within a wheat germ is many times what would appear ina natural HELATHY koi's diet. ESPECIALLY the OILS, and a NON-BALANCED group of amino acids.
A MUCH better choice would have an amino acid make up that is similar to the make-up of a koi's over all protein and not a caloricly dense oil of NO use.
At low temps and in Winter a koi is not being active and has some stored energy thaat hobbyists are trying to eliminate from the koi to some extent (hence there is NOT a caloric concern) but amino acids/proteins are the building blocks of all organs, hormones, etc. BUT organs constantly degrade unless their is an adequate source of NEW amino acids. and if an organ degrades it becomes weaker....and if all the organs are degrading the KOI becomes weaker.

WG is a gimmick. it has some potential but it has been magnified in an attempt to make a buck.
The Correct source of protein for koi would be freshly ground koi. it would contain the right profile of amino acids.
and should be given in small quantities in small amounts so the food stays in the gut for a long enough time to be thoroughly digested and absorbed.
by doing what I have outlined you will have the least amount of fecal matter for the same volume of food and have healthier koi.

And a Baker is a poor source for information. bakers play with complex starches...WG is of course going to be their "Holy Grail" as it provides something other than Carbs. WG isn't good when compared to high quality animal protein.

DAMN IT HOW COME I AM having this argument.
listen I don't want to talk to anyone about this. High-quality animal-source protein IS the logical and intelligent choice. feed em cheerios if ya want. but at least I have told you what is right and makes complete LOGICAL sense.
Nothing else to add and I ain't going to entertain foolish ideas.

Ian

01-12-2006, 10:36 PM

It's that simple hey?
Hikari Wheatgerm
Ingredients: wheat-germ meal, fish meal, wheat flour, rice germ meal, gluten meal, wheat bran, starch,dried bakery product, enzyme, brewers' dried yeast, garlic, monosodium glutamate, vitamin A oil, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K), choline chloride, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized vitamin C), calcium pantothenate, riboflavin, thiamine mononitrate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, niacin, folic acid, biotin, ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, zinc sulfate, magnesium sulfate, cobalt sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, aluminum hydroxide, selenium yeast

No friggin CORN

luke frisbee

01-12-2006, 11:08 PM

"gluten meal"...can the source of the gluten be corn? "dried bakery products" ...could that be corn? They can put whatever they want in "dried bakery products"...Ian did you read the ingredients before or even during typing them? I mean critcally read them. No Corn? You sure?
But there are several other useless carb components, And most of the vitamins added are available in "fish meal" but it is cheaper to add bulk in the form of carbs and add nutrition (that is already present in adequate amounts in the fish meal) to the carbo component..
fish meal.

luke frisbee

01-12-2006, 11:13 PM

AND! if one of the ingredients is garlic, then the stuff isn't palatable for koi...koi eat what is good for them naturally. i don't have to put garlic on my shrimp or the veggies...or oranges....GO FIGURE :-P

Jackie Ramo

01-13-2006, 12:09 AM

So you don't think Danaichi food is good then? My koi love garlic. Oddly enough the dogs don't and they are supposed to like it...

Yes, gluten is corn 98% of the time, and they post ingredients so they can lie to you. Our food is no different, dog food is terrible in the way the post ingredients. I try to stay to products that list whole ingredients and not 'part's or 'meal' 'meal' can include beaks, feet, feathers.... sick sheep who knows what it is but its ground up into meal...

Ta2ude

01-13-2006, 10:16 AM

Having spent the last couple of years researching dog nutrition (and no i am not expert or even knowledgable) over processed food is not right for my dogs IMO, is over processed foods the right choice for my wet pets?

Jackie we did some research on dog food as well and ended up feeding our dogs "Wellness" brand dog food. Any thoughts on this brand from your research ?

Jackie Ramo

01-13-2006, 10:37 AM

The research I did was for home cooking and the BARF (Bones and Raw Food) diets, not particular brands of food. Currently while switching back to the raw diet if I can get Skipper to move back - he stopped eating it after loving it for a couple of years, I am feeding organic holistic food. In general I judge the food by the ingriedients listed. No 'meals' no gluten or corn as the first ingredients. I doubt you will find a food that doesn't contain them but they should be down the list.

I am appalled that last night I listened to the retailer and didn't carefully read the ingredients of a super premium kibble, paid a fortune only to find the first two ingredients are corn and corn meal.... that should teach me !! It is specially formulated for poodles though !rofl And of course the Poodles have turned their cute little noses up at it. Seems I'm out $13.00 for a small bag of kibble. I'm sure the no kill shelter will enjoy the gift.

Dave in Innisfil

01-13-2006, 11:30 AM

I still consider myself a newbie to koi raising, but have a long history with other pets. Yup, the local pond "experts" sold me WG based food for spring and fall use, which I usd because I don't know any better. When the water temp hit 60, I changed to the WG, and stopped feeding entirely when it dropped below 50.

Like Jackie, we have experimented with a variety of foods for our pups, but the closest to BARF they get is meat/venison trimmings. We have found that we get the best results with our holistic Beryle feed, but at $70 a bag I needed some convincing it was worth it. Our dog's coats are now thicker and shiny, and Tina reports she picks up a lot less hair and dog dust vacuuming. We also notice a lot less scratching from dry skin (caused by using forced air gas heating), and fewer vet bills. The dogs eat smaller portions, and their stools are smaller and well formed. I can't help but think the same must hold true for feeding koi. Give em junk, and get junk.

Sure, some will swear by Ol' Roy dog food from Walmart, but I don't eat Spam and don't expect my dogs to either. We normally feed our fish Hitari Gold, and found the fish didn't like the cheaper bulk koi food. This transmitted into more wasted food, thus more for us to filter. We'll use up the bulk pellets on our goldie bog, but will stick to the higher quality food for our "better" fish.

luke frisbee

01-13-2006, 10:13 PM

Busy B

01-13-2006, 11:40 PM

What about feeding cooked barley like I've heard some do...mixed with garlic, I think too...something about filling up their bellies but easily digestable? Anyone try it?

Jackie Ramo

01-14-2006, 12:15 AM

what I meant was that the "food" pellet is not palatable until Garlic is added...garlic ain't cheap so they added if the koi ain't really interested in a sub-par food

Well I admit to being confused here. as far as ingredients go, garlic is cheap as a little goes a long way, certainly cheaper than shrimp. Looking at the ingredient list I can't put Danaichi as sub-par food.

Ian

01-14-2006, 05:36 PM

For the guy who sits in a warm spot on this earth might consider the amount of energy consumed by the koi eating a shrimp and digesting is far more that is gained by this type of feeding. An easy digested plant with what the koi needs (big hard to spell words) at colder temps?? A formulation of ingreidiants to carry what the koi needs. Reducing the waste to a system that is cold??

luke frisbee

01-14-2006, 09:12 PM

shrimp are more calorical dense than any carbohudrate AND are easily assimilated And provide a NET GAIN in calories AND provide the ESENTIAL building blocks to keep the fish healthy...
Who thinks that a food worthless for anything other than calories is what a koi needs?
NO one should...i take that back, i know there are complete imbeciles so someone should.
ian let go of the stupidity...the only reason that YOu are believing that is because you are not thinking.......about the whole picture...there is roughage leftover from the carb source and it will have a negative impact on the water quality.... You could feed the koi less than a third the weight in shrimp as a carbohydrate source And have much less waste and have a GREAT positive impact on the koi's health. And only giving a little food will cause the koi to retain the food so it is more completely absorbed AND this is even better for the feeding of a high quality animal based protein.

BB...only a momma can answer that giving koi barley is good because it fills their tummies....Koi do not need full tummies. they need amino acids. !rofl
U

Ian

01-15-2006, 12:18 AM

luke frisbee

01-15-2006, 01:01 AM

Let go of the stupidity? Think I,m dumb enough not to know the difference with my own eyes there Luke? Think I do not play with food and water quality on the very few koi I own? I think your missing the big picture...Your not seeing the forest through the trees...I even look at feces from the koi and make my own conclusion to what the food is doing at different temps contrary to what I read or hear...I noticed that while feeding shrimp only many koi did not eat for days, stringy poop, cloudy water, daughter screaming I want shrimp, they just ate how much.....why do my hands stink?
All anecdotal and virtually worthless...but you just keep on thinking that what you are doing qualifies as logic and a controlled study.
trust your eyes ian, do not accept fact nor logic... And I feed so little shrimp when i am feeding "only shrimp" that the koi forage extensively to fill some of the void, and I don't switch to "Only Shrimp" in one day...
...this is not going anywhere...i keep stating facts and discussing logic and you keep saying you got stinky fingers...
we are done, yes?

Terri

01-16-2006, 12:01 AM

This threads topic 'was' about the merits of switching to a Wheat Germ koi food for spring and fall - pellets diets and thier differences in protien and carbohydrate make up along with feeding temperature.

Wheat germ is not a gimmick, it's been in use longer than I've been alive(I was born in 1972, you do the math),... sourced out and introduced to koi by Japanese breeders.

WG offers all the amino acids that animal protien does, with a bonus of a few plant amino acids not found in animal protiens. Mix that with heat treated carbohydrates and you have an easy highly digestable well balanced koi pellet - this is done in a process known as gelatinization... and contributes to what is termed protien sparing.

Energy spent to get energy is one of the issues that is important to recognise in winter. WG based foods are easier to assimilate than animal based protien. WG food SAVES the koi energy in digestion. You know how to tell this by the end result - WASTE. The koi would expell more waste(feces) if fed a higher protien diet, such as a High Growth brand food, and this is expensive for the koi - burning stored calories to try to gain 'energy' from that type of food. WG on the other hand requires less so the gain is more,.. you will notice this in your filter as there is less poop.

Luke, you seem to be missing part of the point WG is used. I will not try to change your way of thinking... that is like squeezing blood from a stone, besides, you and your koi do not experience the same seasonal changes ours up here in the north do so what ever works for you ... fine.

I wasn't wrong and I still believe that Wheat Gerrm is a GOOD food to feed my koi... the proof is in our filters and the koi.

We can continue to discuss this topic openly... I've still got more to say just need some time to think of how to relay my thoughts. Digestion & assimilation is something I find quite interesting...

This is me.... learning and gaining to ensure my koi stay healthy and so I don't get bored :grin:

Dave in Innisfil

01-16-2006, 09:54 AM

Ya'll please keep bickering back and forth about food. It's both entertaining and informative. I know basically squat about proper koi food and diet, other than some casual pondside observations. Geographic location/seasonal influences has to be an influencing factor, but the basics of proper nutrition are I think global. Maybe our fish don't see much shrimp, but they sure get a good feeding of tadpoles and mosquito larvae. With our fish spending considerable time "hibernating", I relate their need to filling up on high protein fall food to that similar of bears. Florida bears that don't hibernate don't need to undergo the same fall forage techniques our Ontario bears do.

Cinnamon

01-16-2006, 04:57 PM

I am by far not an expert at Koi feeding but I know the results I have achieved in the last year. It costs a little more but I am a sucker when it comes to my fish kids I guess. Our temps are by far more vairied and not near as cold as those of you way up North. My pond temps right now are standing at 61F. They have not dipped below 49F all year so far. Our coldest weather hasn't really hit yet. I am feeding only broccoli, oranges and kale right now. But when temps are regular I feed 3 different kids of Koi food. I feed Dianichi Premium, Hikari Gold, and then a 32% protein a local guy suggested that is much cheaper. I have had amazing growth on my Koi in the last year. One of my butterfly pond muts was 4" last Dec 15. I haven't netted her but I would guess her length at over 20". She was the largest butterfly that I purchased. I thought about feeding some honey nut cheerios as I had heard about. Any suggestions on it? Since our temps are not high enough to feed the protein food? I plan on netting and measuring all my fish in the spring when I buy a bigger net! :lol: I had planned on doing it in the fall and realized they would no longer fit in the net I have! !bonk

luke frisbee

01-16-2006, 06:55 PM

so this is what was stated....

"WG offers all the amino acids that animal protien does, with a bonus of a few plant amino acids not found in animal protiens. Mix that with heat treated carbohydrates and you have an easy highly digestable well balanced koi pellet - this is done in a process known as gelatinization... and contributes to what is termed protien sparing."

And it does NOTHING to disprove what i have said about why an animal source for protein is better than WG.

First....."with a bonus of a few plant amino acids" That is supporting my logic. The amino acid profile from a fish source would not contain unusable amino acids ( which increases waste). and Nowhere do you provide any information discerning that WG provides the balance of amino acids needed for koi to maintain their bodies.....what you said here is...if you build a house get your bricks from the WG Stone yard...they will send you the type bricks you need AND they will send you other bricks you have NO use for, AND you will get an odd assortment of usable bricks. You will have to keep buying truckloads of bricks till you get enough of the bricks you need to build your house. You will pay for ALL the bricks. And you will be responsible for disposing of the bricks you do not need.
Or you can buy all your bricks from the Fish Brickyard and get ONLY the types of bricks you need so will not have to get rid of excessive amounts of undesirable bricks, and will not need as many loads of bricks.

Now you bring a term which you really have no true understanding so I will provide you with a bit of history and understanding by Duke University.

"Protein Sparing Modified Fast: A special weight loss program called Protein Sparing Modified Fast was introduced in the late 1970's by Dr. George Blackburn and co-workers at the New England Deaconess Hospital in Boston.37 This program consists of a special low carbohydrate, low fat, high protein diet designed to protect body protein mass while selectively using body fat as an energy source. It is supplemented with extra vitamins, minerals, and electrolytes. A weight loss of between 2 and 3 pounds a week has been observed. Compliance with the diet is problematic due to the unpalatability of the restricted diet. Regaining weight is the rule if the diet is discontinued. "

Now come on....you expect us to believe that crap you are feeding is LOW carbohydrae and Low fat....?
Well terri You are a good person....clueless about nutrition but willing to quote babble BS you have no understanding of which is NOT a good thing.

"protein Sparing" is a Buzzword for GIMMICK diet hucksters.

And not that true "protein Sparing diets are unpalatable because they are a goo of amino acids...no sugar or fat...

please stop defending an undefendable position....and introducing new words that you haven't even attempted to do rudimentary research on so you can actually appear to talk intelligently (as opposed to repeating what you have been told because it sounded good) is not wise.

WG is a gimmick when the Health food market caught on to its shortcomings there was a glut created by it....so the gimmick that was for humans was switched to the koi world......

please stop.....

luke frisbee

01-16-2006, 08:21 PM

Ian

01-16-2006, 09:18 PM

I prefer to be the class clown on this one Luke :frisbee: Have ya ever seen a bag of hikari wheatgerm? Have ya ever smelt it? What is in it can clearly grow healthy koi all year round! The boys at Infiltration promote it? Why have Japanese breeders used WG in there feed? You have to listen closly because the big words mess you up..Most of the koi hobbiests have small closed systems! When the water gets cold the koi do not digest in the same way when water is warm. Now there is a whole lot of bacteria,gut stuff,amino acids and the like which you could dazzle into a paragraph or two to make you look like the scientist...not for me ...The boys at Hikari have put some thought into all there feed and even the WG has animal protien!!! It's to simple and logical I can not understand what you do not get? You don't have the market on logic..trust me.
Dave why do dem bears eat bluberries?
Don't piss Terri off Luke or your gonna get a whole lot of hard to spell words that will make my head spin!

Dave in Innisfil

01-17-2006, 10:25 AM

Ian, when I find bears in my favourite blueberry patch, I usually don't bother to ask them many questions. I'm too busy bitchin' that all I'm gonna get is wild blueberry tarts instead of pies........But I would hazard a guess that it's because they're stocking up on protein before having their long winter nap. Most of our bears usual food sources are hard to get in winter, and more energy would probably be spent looking for whatever food they could forage than the actual forage would provide.

Luke, I gotta applaud your simplification of food to a comparison of bricks. The international policy of extracting as much profit from a sale as possible has made most of us just come to accept the presence of "fillers". Ever notice how many food products list "may contain" in their ingredients ?

In survival training, we learned that exclusive diets can kill you. Even if you are lost and have an ample supply of rabbits or fish, you may still starve to death before help arrives. Don't know how that relates to the topic, but thought I'd throw it in anyways........LOL

luke frisbee

01-18-2006, 12:41 AM

dave
in this case I am only referring to amino acids and then only the essential amino acids....Some of the amino acids can be constructed by the organism.

ian,
Since you can think logically I will connect a few dots.....
Food makers make food for the $$$$$$$$. Koi hobbyists buy food with the $$$$$ being a consideration.
Food makers do not make the best food, they make the best food to make a $$$$$$$$$.
So do food makers make the best food for koi irregardless of price....no. They try and find products that make a passable food.
the Silk worm pupae that were at one time THE koi food were a virtual waste product of the silk industry. High in fat and a short shelf life the world wanted Silk pupae simply because the japanese breeders fed them to their koi. Well finally some sense came about.....
WG was a big part of the Human Gimmick helath food market, but that has passed. Another Source for the excess WG had to be found....Koi Food makers steped in....WG is not the best food for any koi. However it is a gimmick that has caught on...When Wg was the rage in Human nutrition one of the selling points was the FIBER aspect... the oils, carbs and "EXTRA" unusable amino acids are not healthy for Winter Koi.....however fed in small amounts they will not koill your fish if you have a clean pond.

And I am not bringing in the scientific phrases...you did.
Protein sparing was the buzzword in nutrition given to gaastric bypass patients...since the GB patients lost tons of weight the Weight loss gimmick mill started producing "protein sparing" drinks....and now the gimmick has been picked up by koi pellet makers...as was GW. And while they have picked up the term they are using it in exactly the opposite context of which it actually is. Oils and Carbs are LEFT OUT of protein sparing food mixtures, but they are central to WG.
The best food for your koi is not mass produced with $$$$ as the limiting factor...at least not the best for winter feeding.
And then again consider, Pellet makers need to make a profit so the mark-up is considerable.
When the water is above 70 degrees I feed mostly high quality pellets and about 5 percent shrimp.
When the water starts dropping below seventy i feed more and more shrimp.
When i decide to "fast' my koi for the Winter, I feed about 80 percent shrimp and 10 percent oranges (plus whatever they can forage), But the amount of shrimp actually stays about the same...I just increase the pellet amount through out the year. maybe I feed more shrimp in the Spring, but not alot more.
But logic would tell you that food makers are in it to make a dollar, not make the best koi food possible....finding the best mass produced pellet is a worthwhile task, but it should be a part of your koi's intake and your decision as to how much a part should be based on logic and knowledge (Knowledge Not gathered from the pellet makers.)

As A lad of 13 I memorized this poem...from a bathroom wall where my Mother worked..
people who write on bathroom walls
roll their shot into little balls,
People who read these words of wit
eat these little round balls of shot.

for some reason it doesn't rhyme like i remember it did :roll:

but concerning the transference of "knowledge, and the form it was transferred in, it fits huh?

luke frisbee

01-18-2006, 12:49 AM

And Protein Sparing is central to the philosophy as to why i am feeding Mainly shrimp and oranges...
S&O provide koi with a protein and vitamin dense food with low fat and low carbohydrate levels in relation to the protein and vitamins offered. this will keep the koi's organs and resistance to disease up, while allowing the koi to absorb its eggs.

Terri

01-18-2006, 12:54 AM

And it does NOTHING to disprove what i have said about why an animal source for protein is better than WG.
I never said WG is better than animal protein, read what I wrote. I am not 'defending' a position... but I do believe there is merit in WG food - we agree to disagree,.. fine by me.
OK you two know I like you so maybe we are not even talking about the same thing... a "protien"... What is it?
I was always taught i before e except after c ... ofcourse there are exceptions to every rule... protien or protein, you know what I was saying... now your nitpicking Luke.... :rolleyes: I may change your user title to spell check warden :twisted:

Protein sparing... well I understood that to mean - in this instance - that by supplying carbohydrates in the food you 'spare' proteins and lipids from being used as energy... but hey apparently I'm a dimwit.

BTW, I like you to Luke :frisbee:

luke frisbee

01-18-2006, 12:58 AM

Dave posted...
"In survival training, we learned that exclusive diets can kill you. Even if you are lost and have an ample supply of rabbits or fish, you may still starve to death before help arrives. Don't know how that relates to the topic, but thought I'd throw it in anyways........LOL"

and i agree with that to some extent...

he left out the information about how if you are limited to rabbits then eat the stomach and small intestines contents as well, ESPECIALLY if you are in a weakened state as this mixture is pre digested and easiset to assimilate.
There is also the aspect that an exclusive diet is one where only the muscle/meat is eaten..IF the entire animal is consumed they "exclusive diet" aspect takes months to become an issue.
My koi are feed small whole shrimp. They forage as well. And I would give them some chopped spinach with the shrimp and oranges if they could not forage.

Predominantly pellet foods are the wrong thing to feed koi during Winter.

Jackie Ramo

01-18-2006, 09:43 AM

Had to check the name of the board, thought I was at the dog food forum. Still principals are the same. Pellets and kibble have lots of filler in them, the less expensive the pellet/kibble the more filler. You can tell this by the poop effect. Dogs need less fibre than humans, not at all sure that fish need any fibre but those needs would be met with those plants most 'serious' koi people leave out of the ponds.

Pet food manufacturers are in it for the money. Vets get no nutrition training except for that supplied by the pet food manufacturers so their advice is unreliable at best.

For myself, and family including fish and dogs, variety of foods give the best nutrition. I don't think shrimp and oranges given only over a long period of time would be a good nutritional base especially for young and growing koi. Certainly I don't believe kibble/pellets alone are the best either. Over processed food is tied strongly to cancer in humans, is it odd we see more cancer and tumours in our fish, dogs and cats?

Also one needs a degree in label reading to understand what is in fact in the food. A great Canadian Stephen Lewis wrote a book called lying with statistics. I always think of him when I read any lable on a food product.

Dave in Innisfil

01-18-2006, 12:16 PM

Luke....you are correct about the stomach, but I opted to leave it out for the queezie of stomach-crowd. We were told depending on the season, to leave one rabbit to rot, and harvest the maggots.

Jackie....we're currently fostering a $4,000 dog, purebred, with lines going back to some of the best German Shepherds ever bred. I hadda laugh when its previous owner thought Science Diet was THE only food to feed him upon the advice of her vet. Opinions, expertise, and experience vary.

I know with my dogs, after a while they get sick of the same food, no matter how nutricious it is. Could this be the same with koi ? When I spiced up their food with garlic as suggested, consumption definitely went up, thus waste went down, and I was getting a better return on my cost-per-pellet.

Dog food makers target pet owners with promises of improved health, shinier and thicker coats, and if I'm not mistaken, don't koi food producers target ponders with promises of more vibrant colours and longer, healthier life ?

Jackie Ramo

01-18-2006, 03:22 PM

Dave, when we signed the adoption papers for Buddy I had to sign that I would not feed him 'Grocery store' Kibble although I didn't have to comit to feeding raw or home cooked. I have to get them back on at least home cooked. Can't stand all the poops. BARF gives the least poop and it is gone in two days.and doesn't stink. Right now they poop on their 2 walks a day and they poop in the yard.... little poop meisters!!!

Ian

01-18-2006, 11:18 PM

I find a lot of info to be confusing as it relates to warm blooded animals?? Koi not warm blooded..no stomach to break down the food...bacteria in the gut and intestines....temperature sensitive??? Even the fish info is geared for carnivorous, predatious fish?? Not too much info regarding our eat all carp. It's the koi food industry who put the $$$ in research to develope foods for long term life and not just a quick growth and the dinner table. Due to the majority of the consumer market willing to spend as little as possible when it comes to fish food reflects the many cheap brands available today. Just as the shelf life of the product, processing,floats or sinks,better for reds,antibiotics ect reflect the way things are made. To say all food manufacturers have no pride in quality and health and not a clue to what they are doing is ignorant. To say they got it perfect does not sit right with me either...

luke frisbee

01-18-2006, 11:59 PM

ian,
i gather from the BS you just posted that you have nothing intelligent to say, nor have you on this topic...... to bring in a vast array of other concerns without any signifivcant information is plain ol BOGUS...BTW Bacteria play a major role in fish and warm-blooded animals' nutritional supplementation.
AND defending the honor of the Elite Koi Food pellet Makers is admirable......Well actually it is just more BS, and an attempt to steer the topic away from the well-supported and logical position that i have proposed.
And as to the pride and honor of the pellet makers. A little parallel.... yes if you have to eat Hot Dogs for dinner I suppose Nathan's is very proud of the hog eyeballs, lips, and snouts that are the main ingredieints in their hot dogs...SO MUCH BETTER THAN THE other brands.

Several times I have expressed a veiwpoint that you were unable to disprove, whereas when you have tried to deflect my criticism with "big Words" I showed that the words you chose to describe what your feeding regime was to accomplish were not appropriately used, and were infact the opposite of what you were espousing.

Logic: WG is used because it is the cheapest source possible for the needed nutrients even though it contains undesirable additional unusable amino acids, fat, and carbohydrates. THAT SHOULD CLUE YOU IN TO HOW BAD THE PELLETS OF THE LOWER-TIER MANUFACTURERS ARE....not how good the better pellet makers are....aww CHICKEN FEATHERS?
TRUTH is if you own a small collection of fish you are a MUCH better hobbyist if you feed your fish fresh foods (High in a signature analysis that and use pellets as a supplement in cooler weather.

Just as a better filter can be made for your pond than can be purchased, but it demands that the on site filter maker must have more money to spend on the filter than the amount it would cost to buy a ready made unit (like ready made pellets).

respectfully I ask you to quit defending the silly notion that a product produced with the main goal of making a buck is going to be better for your koi than what you can provide them from a grocery store...IF you have a little sense and desire to Keep your koi healthy.
However Pellets have their place.

Ian

01-19-2006, 12:54 AM

What are the unusable amino acids in WG ? What part of wheatgerm is unhealthy to koi? Mind sharing doctor? What part of the human anatomy relates to koi? Cool yourself down to 50F and eat a shrimp....hows the relation to the bacteria in your digestion system work? Knock Knock are ya still there...Just relating our needs to koi make me think of your mindset....I could not argure with you as I find it hard to follow ya. I've done my reading and understand more than you'll know! I may have time to push you in the right direction but spoon feed ya... :frisbee: Read about the other ingredients and why.. I got a job..

It Starts with water and ends with water....keep looking you will find it!

ginrin2000

01-19-2006, 12:01 PM

Now Now guys. Discussion is great until insults are traded. Does any one really know how fish food is really made? Here are some simple methods to consider.1. Fish meal is the bones and guts of fishes that are filleted for human consumption.Allthe remains are pureed and dehydrated to make fish meal.2.Wheatgerm while being a vegetable source,compose of over 25%of the entire wheat kernel and probably the most important fact is the very high content of Vit.E.3. While protein quality is most important in fish food,the digestability is very critical in lower temps.4. Processed foods lose so much of it's value,added vitamins and minerals are added to increase the proportion needed to be effective.5.Wheatgerm oil is also high in antioxidants,that prevent the rancidity of the oils present in the actual pellets.6.While amino acids are essential to breaking dowm what we eat, the actual types and amounts vary from person to person and I would suspect fish to fish.7. I believe the best foods (in a closed system) are the ones that generate the least amount of waste,so your system is not overly burden with waste.8 Amino acids are essential for color enhancement such as tyrosine is the one that is needed to produce black and for certain varieties that is a viable way of deepening that color.9.All fishes will assimulate food differently so a variety of foods will ensure everyone get nutrition.10. Probiotic foods are basically foods that contain enzymes and bacteria that will break down the waste produced the fishes. Every one has a point of view,all could be factual some could surmized but none wrong.Medicine has taken many roads to get where we are, and believe me there was much dissent on the way.Good points on both sides but whatever works for you is what you should use.Last point, check on the DNA of wheatgerm it might just answer all your questions regarding this topic.Thanks

luke frisbee

01-26-2006, 08:14 PM

Not worth starting a new thread but here's how the fishies go for their Protein sparing treat of shrimp

Jackie Ramo

01-26-2006, 11:21 PM

Now Luke you underestimate your photo which is great and certainly worth that extra click of a new thread. might encourage you to post a few more of the hurricane babies.

ginrin2000

01-27-2006, 11:41 AM

Luke, Please don't get me wrong .my reply was only to insert some info as to the needs of all fishes. Shrimp is the most accepted food kois will eat because of the scent and palatability. It can also be fed at low temps because of the good assimilation of this food.Problem has always and will be cost and what you are programming your feeding regime for i.e for shows or growth.I believe Wheatgerm was used becuse it was a cheaper alternative to shrimp meal and the coloring aspect was not important. Wheatgerm does however provide a koi with a good balance of nutrition for entering and exiting a period of colder temps.It all boils down to value for the period of your feeding.As with our world, a good balance of foods is a good thing.