Building my Fish house

[Gavin]

After many years in the hobby in the north and wintering fish over both inside and outside in less than ideal conditions, I finally decided to build a permanent fish house for this winter. As with most of my projects I started too late, didn't do enough planning, changed things on the fly, didn't take enough pictures and spent too much money. I'll explain the thought process I went through as well as the thought process I should of gone through.

The process started by deciding to use the filter pit from the "old" pond (since dismantled - to be rebuilt next summer) as a winter holding facility. The hole was already dug, there was a homemade vortex available. The location wasn't ideal (it is on the east side of the house) but our septic field occupies the south side and building codes won't allow construction without moving the bed (clearance issues) - a 20K proposition. East side of the house it is!

Plan A was for a liner in the existing pit (7x17x4.5 ft deep) already supported on three sides and an enhanced retaining wall (concrete or concrete block) as the end wall of the pond separating it from the filter pit. It is 3500 USG including filters.
http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10014/DCP01219_resize.JPG
As you can see the filter pit was unused and overgrown, the two far round tanks are home made vortexs that used to service the other pond. I poured about 300lbs of cement in them to cone the bottoms so they cant be moved or reconfigured easily.

A Koi friend, who happens to be a concrete and paving contractor, offered to help form the retaining wall - which turned into an 8 inch thick, steel re-enforced, fibre mesh air entrained concrete pond. I used one of Gene's aerated bottom drains, running a 1 inch air line and 4 inch bottom drain line into the filter pit. I stuck three 2 inch pipes in the end wall in the filter pit without a great deal of thought to there placement.
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more to come, bare with me.

[Gavin]

The idea of "no folds" greatly appealed to me, so I investigated both CIM and Sanitred liquid liners. I chose the Sanitred due to cost. It went on as advertised and I am quite pleased with it so far. One primer coat, a "patch compound" and a finish coat. The patch compound is needed on all "cold" seams ( different pours between the walls and floors, and all drains and pipe fittings to ensure a water tight seal). Sorry no pictures of that in progress.

I was going to cover it with "hoops and plastic" but was concerned that if it tore or was damaged and the winter was particularly harsh the fish would be at risk. Winter in Ottawa can have 3-4 feet of snow with temperatures in the minus 30s or 40s for several weeks on end. It will be below freezing for 5-6 months. Not ideal conditions for duct taping tears in plastic in a howling blizzard. So, I decided to build a more permanent little house over it.

No point in having a fish house without room to swing a net and pile fish crap up in, so I put a 6 ft alley down the length of the pond. The total structure is 26 x 14 feet. I choose to use the "spray in insulation" which meant I didn't have to vent the roof and it would also form its own vapour barrier. Nothing worse than soggy fibreglass bats and drooping plastic.
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[Gavin]

I used an online solar calculator to determine the best glazing option. I looked at both twin wall and triple wall poly carb greenhouse sheeting, it was expensive and the insulation value was low. Up here you would need insulating curtains at night and on overly cloudy or stormy days. By putting the patio door at the end of the fish tank facing south I am able to get direct sunlight to penetrate the structure about 12 feet for several hours on most days and at least 6 feet from Oct until Apr (based on solar azimuth charts). The square windows are as high on the east sidewall as I could get them and still maintain a 4/12 pitch on the roof (snow load considerations), they catch a bit of morning sun.
These show the sanitred, sort of, spray in insulation and the roof shingled.The filter is an aquabead off the vortex to an upper and lower TPR.
http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10014/DCP01266_resize.JPG

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still more to follow...

[Gavin]

These show some details in the filter pit, as I indicated the homemade vortex has 300 lbs of concrete in it so it isn't moving. I had to run the feed around the back wall to the aquabead.
http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10014/IM000552_resize.JPG

http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10014/IM000561_resize.JPG
I ganged the two TPRs together, rather than separate them (they are below the air pump). In hindsight more flow control would have been better. I get current but not as much as I would like.
http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10014/IM000553_resize.JPG


A couple of the gang.......
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I then added a Kaldness Shower Tower, 8 crates and 150 litres of Kaldness on a temporary cedar frame. It is currently flowing at 2600 GPH although I can increase it to about 5000GPR. It is fed from the mid level intake right to the pump and into the shower, no filtering. ( so far so good) The water clarity is great with the aquabead but I wanted a de gassing function.
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almost done..,

[Gavin]

The last couple show the fish house as it is currently.
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I need to:

1. Buy my wife something REALLY nice for Christmas :grin:
2. Pour a concrete slab with floor drains
3. Build a hinged platform over the vortex, so I can add an interior door from the house to the fish house
4. Finish exterior ( got too cold to stain)
5. Finish interior walls and electrical

I would be happy to answer any questions, and oh yes, in the words of the famous fish author, about $4.52 Cdn a USG :)

Gavin
Ottawa, Ont
CANADA

[Ta2ude]

I like it nice job!

[Jackie Ramo]

Gavin, you old bandit. You'd better buy the fish widow something very nice indeed. Now I know why you never answered my emails. A busy boy to be sure.

Looks just fantastic. Certainly a step down for the fish in size of their last home. but a step up towards what the fish widow wanted and filtration.

Is it to be heated at all or just ambient sunlight? Are you heating the water? How many wet pets is it currently holding.

[Gavin]

Hi Jackie, yes very busy, a long summer to be sure. The pondwidow will indeed get an extra nice present this year, I was thinking a nice Isa Showa...perhaps I'd better keep thinking :roll:

A step up indeed, water quality and clarity so far is excellent. As I indicated I wish I had a little more current for exercise, although the pond volume rotates nicely and the bottom stays very clean.

The fish house right now just receives ambient heating from the adjoining room. The little window is where the boiler is located so a small window fan will push the excess heat into the fish house. Right above that is the intake for the HRV ( heat recovery ventilator). I'm going to reverse the intake and outake so the HRV exhausts into the fish house - That will look after the air.

I plan on running a heat exchanger in the filter pit off the boiler as a second circuit, probably over the holidays, so I'll have it for Jan and Feb if needed. So far the water is holding in the low 70's, with the air temp and passive solar.

There are about 25 fish in there at present, mostly Tosai I collected over the summer, and a few of the old gang. ( red, black and white - you wouldn't like them... :)) I expect 10 of those will go in the spring. I'm also planning a trip down to Quality Koi early in the new year....if I can sneak that by the PW to see if I cant find a little "something"

Hi to the HF

[Terri]

What are your plans for the rail around the pond? Glass?

Will you be dropping the temp in the room later on?

Very nice Gavin, looking forward to seeing it completed(in person hopefully LOL)
Bit envious of your planned trip to QK, I've heard nothing but good things about them, and having met Matt I'm sure it's all true.

[Gavin]

Hi Terri

Thanks again for the help posting this - those that know me understand it never would have happened if left to me

I plan on putting two "fixed" planters on the outside corners of the pond where the screen is now. In between I plan on a hinged bench that can be lowered to sit on and enjoy the fish or tipped up to act as a security wall between the planters when no one is in the fish house.

Behind the shower tower I will put plexiglass I expect. I might also "hang" the shower tower off the wall between the two windows, it would look better I think and be a little more effective if the intake and return were not on top of each other ( the TPRs help with mixing so I dont think it is an issue)

I will drop the temp in Jan-Feb for a bit of a fasting period, not much since I have a lot of tosai in there at present. I might move the little guys out for those couple of months so I can keep them at 70 degrees plus.

I'm looking forward to QK, haven't heard back from Matt on a good date yet. I'm also trying to get "clearance" for a trip to Allentown this weekend, they have a great weekend planned - I dont suppose you could call the PW for me........ :roll:

[Ian]

That is cool! Nice job... Did you spray the foam yourself or did you hire it out? What is the cost like? Still got pictures some place of when it was the filter pit for the old pond.

[Jackie Ramo]

If you make it to Allentown say Hi to Bonita for me, she will be there. Although I think the PW will have you on a shortish leash for the holidays.

Smith got me what he calls a leather jacket... small fits my finger, sparkles white with a green big spot. Nice Jacket is what I say :lol: so if you need more ideas on what to get her, let me know and I'll ask HWJ for you.

Perhaps if you were real good you could talk her into a Florida vacation in March... isn't that when the ACKa show is?????

I'm surprised it is staying so warm with no real heating. Mind our greenhouse is one big air leak .... temp set at 15C but only 8.5c when we got up this morning. Mind the 300 watt heater in the water keeps this fish at 62F this morning...

Tweet sends you a big splash, yeah the old faker is inside again.

[Busy B]

That is really nice Gavin. What a great home for your fish to enjoy! I'm sure you'll spend lots of time in there thru the winter.

Where did you find the sealant for the concrete?

[Gavin]

Thanks Ian, I hired the job out, its actually two chemicals heated and mixed at the nozzle under pressure. It cures instantly and gives off a lot of heat while curing - quite different than the stuff in the can. It is very dense and used a lot commercially on steel buildings. Code calls for 3 inches on the roof and 2 inches in the wall. I went with 4 inches on the ceiling and 3 in the wall, since I hope to get away with passive solar heating and the constant exhaust from the HRV. That is another reason I stayed away from the poly carb greenhouse sheeting, great passive gain but it will let a lot of heat out a night without insulating blankets and a back up heat source. The furnace room is right next door, so I can add a duct if need be. It was expensive about $2600.00 for the building and the job took the entire day ( it goes on in several layers - not one shot.) I guessed that bats and vapour barrier (plus a more complicated roof to vent) it would be about $1200. Using foam board would be about $1600 and really difficult to seal. We will see how it does but so far I am quite pleased the building stays very warm and the 6 ft alley is still just G8 gravel on grade, should be even better when I get the slab poured

Jackie, I've "sort of got" permission :roll: for Allentown, with that "implied heavy price to follow" feeling.... It will be a great weekend, the hard part is getting away without spending alot on a fish, I'll say Hi to Bonita if I get there

We did Florida last year with the family, five days at "mouse land" and 3 days at the show....wont be doing that every year!!

I dont think I can afford Smith as a consultant, splash back at Tweet :)

Thanks Busy, if I buy another fish I might be spending a whole lot more time back there than I planned on :grin: I got the Sanitred right from the manufacturer, I dont think they have dealers, it ships UPS, non hazardous without problems. It is actually not a lot more than liner, its cost me about $450.00 to cover 300 sq ft, and I have about 25% left over for the next project - not much over a $1.00/sqft. Of course that doesn't include the $3500.00 worth of cement you need to stick it to :) It is talked about at length on the "other boards" if you google "sanitred" you'll get lots of info - you can even waterproof a cardboard box with this stuff!

[Busy B]

I see more fish in your future :lol:

Thanks..I will search for it..was it a messy application process? Guess I'm thinking of the gunite? that I see going on some ponds and they make it look so easy.

[Merlin]

What a fantastic fish house, I am sure your wet friends will be more than happy to reside in there for the winter :) . Job Well done .

[Jackie Ramo]

Gavin if the sanitred is keeping the place that warm I am very impressed. I wonder what it would cost to do our house!!! darn cold here today and that's inside :roll:

You may want to consider putting the floor heating in under the slab. Not as expensive as it used to be and can be turned on or off as needed. It was -27C here with windchill yesterday and even with the gas heater going full blast and the sun coming into the greenhouse it didn't get above 8.5C all day and fell below that during the day. The plants are not happy. Can you see my little green face of envy from there??

[Gavin]

Yes, Busy I see more fish in my future as well :grin: I dont mind paying for the fish, it is the "hidden guilt" that seems to be associated with every purchase - no matter how long ago, I have trouble managing well.....

The sanitred goes on with a high nap roller and brush just like thick paint. Just get the primer and top ( finish) coat in two different colours so you can see any misses. It is a bit more work than painting, the stuff likes to stick to the concrete and it is thick, I would say about twice the pressure it takes to roll a normal wall

Using poured forms for the concrete is FAR cheaper than gunite. I was quoted a cost of $3000.00 just for the equipment to come to the house! It was then additional costs for the concrete, rebar and labour. Part of the problem here is only one local company does it, I'm sure it would be much cheaper in the Southern US where there is more competition. ( not that it does you any good :) ) Gunite is messy to apply ( overspray) but by far the best choice if you can afford it.

Jackie my Dear, the sanitred is the black coat on the fish pond that keeps the concrete from leaching and poaching my fish. The "two pound" spray foam in the roof and walls is what is keeping things nice and toasty. Hard to see in the pics, same colour as the raw wood. Might be worth checking out even an inch on top of what you have would make a big difference,you can also get denser blue spray foam, same R value but goes on thinner, Polyurea spray foam insulating contractors are what you are after

That is a great idea for infloor heating in the slab, I briefly considered it for the pond itself, but I didn't have the time to sort it all out in the short period I had to pour the concrete - next pond!! I could always just install it and then hook it up later if need be - now I've got some time to plan properly

Thanks for the kind words Merlin

[Jackie Ramo]

Jackie my Dear, the sanitred is the black coat on the fish pond that keeps the concrete from leaching and poaching my fish. The "two pound" spray foam in the roof and walls is what is keeping things nice and toasty. Hard to see in the pics, same colour as the raw wood. Might be worth checking out even an inch on top of what you have would make a big difference,you can also get denser blue spray foam, same R value but goes on thinner, Polyurea spray foam insulating contractors are what you are after

That is a great idea for infloor heating in the slab, I briefly considered it for the pond itself, but I didn't have the time to sort it all out in the short period I had to pour the concrete - next pond!! I could always just install it and then hook it up later if need be - now I've got some time to plan properly


Thanks for the clarification sanitred was the only named product I could find on the thread. Certainly something to keep in mind for other uses though.

As for spraying the greenhouse, I don't think the light would shine through. !rofl Mind one day when we win the lottery a lot of things will be different around here, including the greenhouse. But maybe I could spray the inside of the house... built when they thought dead air was all you needed to insulate a house.

I wish we had put the radiant heat in the basement when we had the chance. If we redo the downstairs kitchen floor it will certainly go in there. Its on the maybe list for the upstairs bathroom reno in January.

[Elizardbreath]

Gavin,
Your fishhouse is so lovely. Enjoy it!!!
I am very jealous but coping....
Beth :twisted:

[Busy B]

There's alot of that going around isn't there Beth? :grin:

[GregBickal]

Very NIce!!!

[Gavin]

Thanks Greg and "Eliz"

Beth

Thanks, "Nothing but a bit of wood and foam" make one of your own at what ever scale you choose. Great way to waste time in the wnter :)
Greg
I've enjoyed watching your house go up on the "pond". Excellent job as well!, lot more volume than I have. Keep posting progress reports, I'm interested in how you find the heat loss with the poly.
Hi to PG and 78 minus...........

Gavin

[luke frisbee]

say hi to pG yourself...excellent hobbyist project you have undertaken

[Jackie Ramo]

Now Gavin, can we see some better pics of the fish. I know you have a few nice ones. We won't let the PG comment to harshly after all he claims we are the nicest of boards !rofl

[Gavin]

Thanks Luke, great job on the lake! I'm going to split the TPRs on seperate lines ( which is what I was going to do in the first place) not quite enough circulation. The bottom is 95% clean but there are a couple of dead spots

Jackie, we are getting a new camera during boxing week. I dont know if it will help or not, cant take a decent fish picture for the life of me. I'll surf the boards a bit, I recall some hints have been posted from time to time

Gavin

[Jackie Ramo]

Gavin one of the guys who takes the best pics of fish is our own Dear Ian. Perhaps he will once again do a synopsis of his tricks and hints. Certainly I could use a refresher course.

[OttawaPonder]

Gavin, nice work and set up there. (no Thumbs up smiley face on the list) So big Thumbs up - without the face LOL

Gavin are the rest of the outside walls covered for winter? If not and if it be of use - I have a roll of roofing paper - you are welcome to have - to get you by until you are able to get back to working on the outside.


Very nice Gavin, looking forward to seeing it completed(in person hopefully LOL)


Oh sure Terri :-P LOL if you and Ian make it to Gavin's you best pop in - over here :grin: or else LOL

!bonk I know you never were able to come up this way. However you do recall you had an invite a year ago. :lol:

[Terri]

:grin: Tony, yes I do remember and haven't forgotten! When it's warmer up your's and Gavin's way we'll come visit... can't stand Ottawa in the winter LOL it's cold enough down here!

[OttawaPonder]

:grin: Tony, yes I do remember and haven't forgotten! When it's warmer up your's and Gavin's way we'll come visit... can't stand Ottawa in the winter LOL it's cold enough down here!


Terri, you do NOT have to be concerned about Ottawa - I do not live - right in Ottawa - :lol: Ha ha ha ha (oh I crack myself up at times)

So make sure you both get your :eek: (butts) up here :grin: in 2006

[OttawaPonder]

Hey Terri it is now 2006 - :grin: How come you are not up here yet? :lol:

Gavin, Is there any updates? Were you able to do any work on your project over Christmas and New Year holiday? If so do tell - do tell - PLEASE - I am all ears... :grin:

Thanks,

[OttawaPonder]

Hey Gavin, Srry to be a pest - however I am dieing here - with all this cold and now its snowing again.

Need to enjoy someone's project and porgress. Any thing new?

Hope you and yours had a great Christmas and your New Year is off to a great start.

All the best,

PS do you want that food I have?

[Jackie Ramo]

I Haven't forgotten that you owe me fish pics Gavin. :frisbee:

[OttawaPonder]

Hey Gavin,

Any to report?? Any update.... Any news at all??


Ground still frozen in most places and others it is nothing but mud. Not able to work outside yet...

I need a fix - real bad!! Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[Jackie Ramo]

Keep nagging him Tony.

[OttawaPonder]

Keep nagging him Tony.

:confused: Hmmmm "nagging him" :-P is that what you calling it :-P

And here I thought I was motivating him to move forward and keep us posted.... Not only for our behave but his too. :lol:

[OttawaPonder]

Oh Where Oh Where has Gavin gone? Oh where can he be???
Anyone know if he finished the fish house project?? Any up dates??

As most know I have not been on much. Life in general has a way of taking control with its ups and downs and making one rearrange things as time goes on.

I hope I did not run Gavin off.. It was "Jackie's Fault she made me keep asking about the fish house..." :grin: I have the twist marks to prove it. :lol:

Oh Ok - I wanted to see more - as it was very up lifting. It was also a nice plus to help pass our cold winters.

Gavin I hope all is well!!

[Jackie Ramo]

Tony!!! A lot of nerve blaming me for your obsessive interest in Gavin... does your wife know :lol:

Gavin, stop being AWOL. We want an update.

[Ian]

Would hazard to guess he has been busy latley working for the forces and all..Hope all is well and I would also like to see how things are going. Happens I am working in Ottawa and know were he keeps his beer :grin:

[OttawaPonder]

Tony!!! A lot of nerve blaming me for your obsessive interest in Gavin... does your wife know :lol:

Gavin, stop being AWOL. We want an update.

Jackie I merley have to point the MRS to your post:

Keep nagging him Tony.

She can clearly see for herself - you were egging me on.. You twisted my arm and made me do your dirty work for you. LOL

JACKIE made me do it!!!! - And I am sticking to it.

PS Gavin, Sorry never got the food to you - the Mrs took it back and I felt bad I had offered it to you - when we no longer had it - Man oh man - you women need to keep us guys in the loop.

Signed not a mind reader :lol:

[Jackie Ramo]

!rofl Tony, you break me up

Ian, when raiding the beer fridge, take some pics and say hi to the Pond Widow for me.

[Busy B]

Hey Tony!

Watch out for Jackie..she'll make you do things you don't want to :smile:

[Jackie Ramo]

For Shame!!! I am not the one who made you drink that extra beer and dance onthe table Busy......