Ammonia problems

[Ta2ude]

I noticed my ammonia levels are starting to climb, probably because my bio-filter isn't up to speed yet. I did a %25 water change last night but levels are still high in this mornings test. Do I make daily water changes or every other day? Also I have read that salt can help this a little bit and I was wondering if SEA-SALT is ok to use. I use it for cooking and the box says there are zero additives. Any other remidies for this condition???

[Terri]

Salt does nothing for ammonia issues, I believe you are thinking about nitrIte(NO2). Daily small water changes will help the fish but an ammonia detoxifier, such as Amquel Plus or Chlor-Am X, will help even more until your filter catches up. These water conditioners remove chlorine/chloramine and detoxify ammonia nitrite nitrate for the fish.

Werner started a very good thread http://backyardpuddle.com/forum/showthread.php?t=770 about salt and it's use/misuse, good read.

[Ta2ude]

Terri I couldn't find anything for the ammonia problem at any of the local pet/fish shops, but did find some Serra bio starter at a garden center. The resident "fish expert" told me this should help, and within a couple days I would notice a difference.

Should I believe this "experts" advice??? Should I give it a few days before I do any more water changes and use this product to jumpstart my filter??

[Terri]

That is entirely up to you, I don't put much stock in the packaged 'bio start-ups'. Will it hurt? No. Will it benefit... remains to be 'proven'.
Is this the product? sera nitrivec - a special mixture from different bacterial cultures that in a very short time, develop a natural micro life and consequently, a functioning nitrogen cycle in the freshwater aquarium. sera page (http://www.sera.de/English/autoframe.htm?url=http://www.sera.de/english/produkte/bio_nitrivec.htm)
I think you might find it would take just as long to cycle the 'old fashioned' way as it would if you added this bottled starter.

I've always let the cycle take it course(in aquaria or pond), water changes were done frequently - and while the ammonia continued to spike it never got 'excessive'... and I never used products like Amquel Plus.

Another alternative would be Ammo-Lock, this is a granular media that absorbs ammonia. I have to check,... I think I may have a bottle of Amquel Plus kickin' around that I could send you - get back to you on that.

[Ta2ude]

Yes Terri that's the stuff nitrivec.

I Think I will slip into Cambridge tomorrow and see what they have at Super pet. It's a little better stocked than the rinky dink pet stores here.

I just tested again and the ammonia is at 1 and the nitrites are still reading zero. I guess I will give it another day and if nothing changes I will go back to the water change again. Thanx.

[Terri]

Well, ammonia leads to creating nitrite and 1ppm isn't 'alarming', hopefully it won't peak out much past 1.5ppm. Keep up the water changes, it will do the fish good. Good luck at SuperPet... if you can't find anything let me know and I'll send out that Amquel Plus.

[Jackie Ramo]

All pet stores have a dechlorinator of some sort and that is what you are looking for. Any dechor will do, ammo lock, prime, cycle, amquel.... I'd also salt now which I think you have done cuz the next step is nitrItes and salt will get the fish through that. Why folks wait until the fish are gasping at the surface to add salt has never registered with me, if you know you are going to need it add it now then it will be there protecting the fish when it occurs. Better to use a binder/dechlor than water changes. The bacteria grow to the amount of food if you reduce the food you reduce the bacteria...

This doesnnot mean you should not do water changes.... but 10 - 15% a week is usually enough

[Ta2ude]

I drove to the nearest Petsmart and got a bottle of AmQuel+ I am going to add this shortly.I just took water readings and figured I would post before and after readings and try to give you as much info as possible. PH 8.25, salt .08% (the kit says .20% is optimum?),300+ PPM total hardness, ammonia 1.0 PPM, Nitrite 0.

About to add 5 ounces of Amquel+ :-?

[Jackie Ramo]

Add away. Although I think that is a lot to add. With Prime which is what I use a capfull or tablespoon does 100 gallons.... But follow the directions each product is different.

The salt at 0.1% - 0.15% is suffcient to protect the fish from the coming nitrites, so when they start to show add a bit more salt to protect them from the spike. Also with Amquel plus it says it helps with nitrites. Have not used it myself so have no first hand information. I use Prime which also claims to help with nitrites but the new pond still got them... whether as much as I would have shown or not I don't know.

[Terri]

Ta2ude, salt level only need be upto 0.1%, over that is 'overkill' where nitrite is concerned - a little goes a long way. So where your salinity level is sitting NOW is FINE. Although ammonia is quite toxic at your pH level the coming nitrite won't be - the higher the pH level the less toxic to fish - BUT still 'bad'. Having mentioned that is pretty much nul'n'void seeing as you now having the Amquel Plus, you can 'rest easy' where the cycling stress for the fish are concerned...

THE only reason I am instant about the frequency of small water change outs here is the STOCKING LEVEL in the tank... this will not adversely effect the cycling rate or the bacteria growth rate/ratio(to my knowledge) as ammonia is ALWAYS present in any system with fish... maybe all the water changes I do have made my brain mushy :-?

[Ta2ude]

Well amquel has been added and I just completed a mod to the system. I hooked up my big pump (1500GPH) to the pond. I had tried this before but needed some valves as it was too powerfull for the system. I plumbed in a TEE, one line just goes back to the tank as current or a jet, the other to the filtration. The one going to the tank has a valve installed so i can control the flow between the filtration and it. I kinda Mc Gyvered it together so it's still in the testing stage. Hopefully I won't find 350 gallons of water in the basement later on! I cant believe what an instant hit it was for the fishes!!! The line that goes back to the tank is a spray bar system and it creates a lot of airation and a fairly strong current. The fishes love it, they are playing in the current and coming right up to the jets and sucking in that oxygen rich water. I feel like I was almost neglecting them before.
Now I am concerned I may be cycling the bio-filter too quickly!!! I know I am a bit anal and obsessive or as my wife says a freak but I am a stickler for details I want my pond to be perfect.

[Jackie Ramo]

Got a pic of the setup? Just one reminder - fish need a quiet spot to rest, yes they do sleep, sort of, rest is a better term.

[Ta2ude]

This mornings water test results:
PH 7.8
AMMONIA still around 1.0
NITRITES 0
WATER TEMP 64
FISH COUNT -1

[Terri]

Cycling will take a bit longer at that temperature but it will happen, warming up the water into the 70F range will help, if possible.

-1 fish... better go read the other thread...?

[Werner]

ta2ude---I think it's time to further your education about ammonia.

Ammonia (http://www.wernersponds.com/ammonia.html)
Recommendation: Stop feeding for 2 weeks

and the Ammonia eliminator:

Zeolite (http://www.wernersponds.com/Zeolite.html)

I'm sure you'll have questions, but read the articles first.

[Ta2ude]

Well last night was the first time I registered a nitrite reading .25
I did a 25% water change and the reading is the same today. Was this reading to be expected as I was already getting ammonia readings and this is the next phase. I guess my bio-filter still isn't up and running yet ? Do I need to freak out yet or should I take a deep breath and just continue with water changes every other day ?

[Terri]

Ta2ude, it does take some time for the bio filter to cycle - 4 to 8 weeks generally. Reading nitrite now means things are coming along - next is nitrate. Just keep doing what you have been doing, in another few weeks the bio filter should be pretty much up to doing it's job.

[Jackie Ramo]

I'm not a fan of water changes to get through a cycle.... shhh don't tell Ian. Anyway be sure there is salt at 0.1% and do your weekly water changes, Ammonia is held to 0 by binders or dechlor - same thing just different names. Use prime or amquel and don't fret over it.

[Terri]

So, how's it going....?

Different strokes for different folks Jackie.... :razz:

[Jackie Ramo]

Yes, Terri. There are different approaches to each problem with this hobby and folks sometimes get confused but I do feel that options should be discussed. Not everything works for everyone the same way. Large water changes can be a burden on both the owner and the fish. Some think the binder slows down the cycle and some say water changes slow down the cycle !rofl If that doesn't drive a new ponder crazy then I don't know what will.

I know you are out doing water changes everyday so it isn't an issue for you but for others without the right set up its a pita. I've done it both ways and both work. BTW I didn't notice a length difference in the cycle with either method... still took about 6 weeks more or less.

[Ian]

Jackie dear, it is not about the FILTER cycling.......Water changes are for the koi, still nothing to do with the owner or setup, just the fishies. It's about not losing a fish while waiting for a filter to cycle. It's about lowering or just keeping the bacteria count down while the fish are under stress, your water Q can stress the fish without ammonia or nitrite readings!! Why do we do regular water changes with mature strong filters????

[Ian]

Yeah and what Terri said, different strokes for different folks.......one fish two fish dead fish... !bonk

[Jackie Ramo]

No one was suggesting regular water changes were not necessary darling man.... read my post again.

[Ta2ude]

Still keeping up the water changes every other day. Modified my filter to a trickle tower/media shower...I now have six milk crates 2 rows 3 high loaded with bio-balls I think this set-up will give em better airation as I only have a large optima air pump. I realize this probably isn't sufficient for my tank so will be looking to purchase an airtech pump in the near future. I can't check my ammonia because the kit I have isn't compatible with the Amquel +. Nitrites stil at .25. Fish seem fine and now all the goldfish are gone it should help a little...I hope.

[Jackie Ramo]

A lighter fish load is always better. Sounds like a good setup you have now.

[Ta2ude]

Can anyone tell me what ammonia kit is compatible when using Amquel +...the pet store can't !! Thanks :)

[Ta2ude]

Well I guess my bio-filter is FINALLY working !!! :grin:

I have been getting 0 ammonia readings for a while now and just started getting 0 readings for my nitrites.

Does this mean I can stop with the 25% water change every 2 or 3 days and do it on a less frequent basis like once a week ???

[luke frisbee]

yeah as long as the temperature doesn't drop ...but back off by doing a smaller percentage. If you drop back to one 25% change you might be having some chemical (pH) swings that could weaken the fish.

[Jackie Ramo]

I agree with Luke a smaller water change and until the numbers are solid.