Koi w/ Abnormal looking areas

[BonnieIN]

While feeding right before dark, I noticed that one of my koi has a few areas which are abnormal looking.
They almost look like scratches but also kind of raised looking, similar to a scar. (sorry this is the closest description that I can think of) These are small areas, the largest being approx. 1 - 1 1/2" which looks the worst because it's just a tad bit pinkish looking right next to the area.

Sorry but this is all the information I can give for now until tomorrow other than it acted normal and this is a scaleless koi.

What steps should I begin to take tomorrow?

Any ideas at all what this may be?

Thanks much,
Bonnie

[Jackie Ramo]

Doesn't sound good Bonnie, but then you knew that. Ulcers can often raise the skin before breaking through, not what you wanted to hear I'm sure but what jumped to mind when reading your post.

Best to net the koi and give it a good examination before jumping to my conclusions. I'd have a plan for hospitilization just in case I am right.

[BonnieIN]

Yes Jackie, I'm afraid this is more than "just scratches" from rubbing against a rock on the rock ledge. I just found it odd due to the fact they were so straight looking, not jagged.

I'm definately going to net it tomorrow to get a better look. Unfortunately this is one of the more skiddish acting koi which makes it harder to catch!

[Terri]

I'm off to bed atm but will share my thought tomorrow and wait for your post update Bonnie.... Sorry to run.

nite,. hugs

[Terri]

Hi Bonnie, how's the fish today? Were you able to catch and inspect?

I don't like forming an opinion about these sorts of things with the little bit of info that was provided but I will admitt that I am leaning towards Jackies first impression. There is another possibility, believe it or not Carp Pox. Tends to look quite different of a doitsu fish.

Anyways, waiting for you to post back so we can see what's up! :-)

[BonnieIN]

Just got back home from taking my Mother to Cincinnati... going out now to try to net the koi and while I'm wading, going to trim the waterlilies!


Thanks,
Bonnie

[BonnieIN]

Well I had no luck with netting but I managed to get a half way decent pix of the two areas. (After trying over and over)

Hopefully this will give you an idea what I've been trying to describe!

Thanks a bunch!

Bonnie

[Terri]

Bonnie, it doesn't look too bad, rule the ulceration out, that really looks like scratches - from what? who knows? Something in the pond or a failed preditor attack(kinda looks like claw marks)? I think a tag-team(put DH to work :grin: ) effort is in order to catch this koi and atleast clean the wound with iodine. Not the best time of year to incure an injury but close observation and this healthy doitsu should heal just fine.

[Jackie Ramo]

Bonnie, looks like a scratch to me as well. Unlike Terri I'd leave the fish alone unless it is redder than the pic shows. I know your water is good... should be ok. Find out who is fishing in your pond...

There a second opinion!!!!

[BonnieIN]

Thanks Terri and Jackie,
More than likely, this is the guilty one. Usually he just likes to swat at them though. He's a heck of alot faster than me because I had no luck in getting even close to netting the koi!

I posted this on another forum and both Roddy and Lee have suggested a low dose PP treatment. Lee did say if possible to catch the koi, a swab of Iodine wouldn't help but if PP would most likely do the job, I think it's time for me to learn how to use it.

I've read alot of posts in the past 3 years about it but until now never really had a good cause to use it.

What ya think????

[Terri]

Here kitty kitty kitty :grin:

They are recommending removing the koi and giving it a PP bath? Or PP paste?

If you choose to net the koi & treat the wound, iodine would be less stressful of a treatment. It does not appear to be infected, iodine would just be precautionary, Debride medicated ointment would be a good alternative. I only suggest this(and Im sure it's the reason PP was suggest by Lee & Roddy) because cat claws can harbour bacteria that could cause infection.

Just my thoughts...

[BonnieIN]

Terri, they are suggesting to do a low dose PP treatment to the whole pond. Roddy said he will "hold my hand" thru the treatment and I have his phone number if needed.



Here are their replies:

Roddy:
"The places look like physical damage to me.

Unless they turn into ulcers, they will heal. Low level PP treatment will keep bacteria counts suppressed to give less liklihood of ulceration of the damaged areas, if you are comfortable with that procedure.

The koi either scratched itself on something in the pond or escaped an attempt by a predator to catch it."



Lee B:
"From your initial description, I was thinking that maybe the scales along the lateral line were a bit raised, and then got to the photo.

Roddy's right: it sure looks like something took a swipe at them. If this was summer and the fish had a nice long time to heal, I'd tell you to just let them be, keeping an eye on them. But again, Roddy's right: you're going into winter, and you don't want any bacteria taking advantage of the wound while the fish's immune system is in the downshift mode. I agree that you should try a low level PP treatment to clean up the bacteria count a bit. The bacteria can (and will) be active long after the fish have ceased to be able to protect themselves. The winter could be the end of them.

The scratches aren't bad enough to require any heavy treatment, but if you can catch them and give them a dab or two of iodine, it certainly wouldn't hurt . . .

Good luck to you and them!"

[Terri]

Thanks Bonnie for posting their replies :-)

Ok, I can "agree" with their thinking and as I said above, not the best time of year for an injury. But, this is where your experience and confidence in your pond system & fish health comes into play.

It is good experience to use chemicals you are not familiar with in "baby steps", Roddy is definately the guy to walk you through a PP treatment. The other side of the coin,... PP will nuke all bacteria not just the aeromona/pseudomona/etc, and there are several strains in your pond you want to keep alive(but you knew that).

I still think that this koi looks good and healthy and healing will take place with little(Iodine swab) or no intervention, but then I'm not there and you are ;-)

[Jackie Ramo]

Well I've always felt it best to learn how to handle chemicals before there is an emergency. So this may be a good time for you to do it. Lee always gives excelent advice. Where is Roddy posting these days?

[BonnieIN]

Clearing ones throat........ KP and he occasionally posts at AWGS


I am going to go with a low dose PP treatment.
I ordered some Sodium Thiosulphate from Gene to have on hand for reversal and Roddy told me he would be available anytime for any of my questions or concerns. (very nice of him to give me his numbers)

Gotta go to Home Depot to get the PP, sometime over the next few days.

Wish me luck,
Bonnie

[Terri]

Good Luck :-)

[Tom C]

To tell the truth if it was me I wouldn't do a thing to it.

[Ian]

I do not think I would do anything unless it started looking worse. Somtimes playing with the water chemistry with PP is not such a good idea. I find uping the water changes will go farther for your fishes health than playing with chems.

Play safe....

[Busy B]

So in some instances it's better to take a wait and see attitude than attack? Even with winter coming on?

[Ian]

I believe so.. If the koi is healthy and in a good environment then it started healing seconds after it was inflicted. It's defence systems would be on the job already. A netting and stress takes a number of days for the koi to get over and may just push it past it's limits and start going down hill. If it's healing it's good and no need to fix.

[Tom C]

If you can get another new picture that would say a lot. The picture you posted didn't look bad at all. You are also dealing with a doitsu koi. PP can be a lot harder on the skin of a doitsu koi.

Tom

[BonnieIN]

Tom, I will take another pix tomorrow because it's dark here now. The koi looks about the same, maybe just a tad bit more pink to the area.


Thank you Ian and Tom for your advice.
At this point, I don't know what to do! So many different opinions........ I just want to do the right thing because this is one of my best looking koi. (shows you that I have Mutts)

[Jackie Ramo]

Bonnie, let me tell you, follow your heart. WE are not there, can not see the fish, the water, the temps. you are there. We offer what we would do to our pets if this happened to them. You've had no bad advice here or elsewhere that you posted here. This is the hard part, deciding.

[BonnieIN]

I tried to take a pix and my camera batteries are low. I thank you all for your advice but I am going to do a small PP treatment tomorrow. I hope that you understand and will still continue to give me advice in the future. Like Jackie said, go with your gut instinct so this is what I'm going to do.

Wish me luck with the PP treatment, since it's my very first.

Bonnie

[Terri]

Bonnie :grin: you do what you think is best. All we can do is offer opinions/advice taken from our own experiences. You make the final choice of what to do based on that and also your own experiences.

Good Luck with the PP treatment, let us know how you feel it went :-)

[Merlin]

Sory I have just caught up on this thread :-( , lots of good advice there. From the look of the pic, it does not look too bad and should heal quite quickly. The large Mirror carp I had to deal with had not only cut the skin, but aslo tore a flap in it. I used two doses of iodine over a 4 week period and the wound was as good as new, he had a slight scar but apart from that all was OK. :)

[Jackie Ramo]

How's it going Bonnie? Its nerve wrecking the first time, I know. I've done hight and low level treatments and one always needs to be careful handling it.

[BonnieIN]

Well, I'm having a heck of a time finding PP! So far no luck but I'm not giving up yet!

[Jackie Ramo]

Its hard to get here as well. Different states have different laws.

How's the fish look?

[BonnieIN]

The fish actually looks about the same. I tried again to net and no luck. :(

With the colder temps they aren't their normal hungry selves so don't come begging as much. Guess I'm not wanted anymore! :(

[Busy B]

Do some buy it at Ho de po?

Your braver than me...chemicals scare me.

[Jackie Ramo]

If it looks the same I'd not panic about it. Anu redness or something and you'll have to swim in and fetch it out.

Can't get it at home depot here. They don't even know what it is....

[Busy B]

So where than? Feed store? Pharmacy? Online?

[Jackie Ramo]

My local pond supply sotre buys it in bulk and repacks it. Charges and arm and a leg but its there if I need it.

[koicrazy]

Bonnie, if this helps you Roddy helped me on first pp treatment. Just do as he says and things should be fine. Was using to get rid of doc and it worked well. If using low dose pp it should not affect bio at all. Not to sure i would do anything on your fish. One more thing if using low dose pp it should go away on it's own about 30 minon it's own. Marc

[koicrazy]

Bonnie one more thing look for pp at a swimming pool place. Marc

[Terri]

So Bonnie,... how'd it go? Update?

[Jackie Ramo]

Hey Bonnie, did you do the treatment or not??? inquiring minds want to know !rofl

[BonnieIN]

Sorry gals, I've been popping in and out and overlooked this.

No I didn't do a treatment. I didn't have any success with finding it locally and didn't have time to check all the stores.

After the holidays I will start my journey again though!

I'm hoping the koi is okay, he's hanging out with his buddies at the bottom and don't want to come and see me right now! :(

[Jackie Ramo]

Bonnie, it was touch and go whether the koi needed a treatment. I'm sure you'd have seen problems by now if they developed. The red would stand out on that fish clear enough for you to see it, even if it was at the bottom.

[Elizardbreath]

Ok, What is PP?? I've had ponds for years and the more I am learning the more I know I don't know.
LizBeth !dude

[Jackie Ramo]

Potassium Permagonate (sp) is PP. An oxydizer and to be used carefully

[Elizardbreath]

Potassium Permagonate (sp) is PP. An oxydizer and to be used carefully

Thanks Jackie,
It is nice to ask questions and have them answered without the sarcasm.
Usually I get a kick out of it, this is better though.
Beth !dude

[Jackie Ramo]

You are quite welcome.

My husband assures me that sarcasm is the lowest form of humour, odd that he says this after I've been joking with him :grin: