QT how long and how

[Tom C]

Dave asked a good question. How long do all of you QT, and what do you do when they are in QT?

Tom

[Jackie Ramo]

The length of time, for me, depends on where the fish came from. Buying direct from a known breeder or from a middle man who buys from many breeders. The more hands the fish has passed through the more time in the Q.

[Tom C]

Come on Jackie give us a number, how long is it that you QT?

I think ALL QT should be treated the same no matter where the koi come from. :) When don't you QT your new fish?

Tom

[Dave in Innisfil]

Having just completed quarantining 7 koi from a mud pond, and now having some concerns about still infecting my resident fish after a 15 day Desafin bath, I wish I had kept them separate longer. Phishi used a chemical shock treatment to reduce the quarantine period for reselling her share of the mud pond fish, but she's done it many times before. I ended my new fish quarantine because racoons and the fish were becoming increasingly interested in defeating our protective measures. In retrospect, I probably should have upped the fortification efforts, and doubled the amount of time. A single treatment of Desafin for my ponds is over $100, opposed to $5 to treat my quarantine pond tank. With recommended water change outs, I'll probably need 4 doses. I'm sure with the money I still may have to spend on post-quarantine medication I could have driven to Terri and Ian's and bought some nicer koi than I quarantined. We're doing another koi/turtle removal this weekend, and should I bring more fish home, they'll be in a quarantine aquarium inside our pond barn a month this time. Seeing my favourite fish in distress sucks, and could be expensive to treat. Newbie tactical error on my part I'll try not to repeat.

[Jackie Ramo]

Tom, for myself, I only buy from a reputalble dealer who Q's their fish (Terri) so for me 2 weeks or 3 if I am enjoying their company in the q pond. Also I know Terri's suppliers and their reputation so I don't worry about KHV. If I bought a fish from walmart it would be 6 weeks, forget it, I would never buy a fish from Walmart!!!

[Dave in Innisfil]

Evidentally I wasn't suppose to have anything sharp in my quarantine pond. There must be other do's and don'ts. I had rocks, floating plants and a big pot of parrotfeather, basically a mini version of what they were going to end up in. Did 25% water changeouts on average every three days, topped up the Desafin to match what I figured I lost, constant aeriation, fed regular pellets and some greenery (lettuce and celery tops), had a couple of goldies from the pond in with the new fish, and washed my hands/equipment between working on the QT and regular ponds.

What did I miss ?

[Terri]

There are a few reasons we QT,... to make sure the fish we receive are healthy(and stay healthy) and to introduce the new fish to our resident population in a way not to cause health issues. I can say that our QT regime has changed somewhat since we started our buisness... but it's a very slight change. Years ago we would purchase the koi we wanted in the late fall or through winter, these fish stayed inside until late spring - this was our QT period, several months. Even then we always put new koi with a couple of resident koi in our QT from the get go(the buddy system). If we did happen to get a new fish during the ponding season we qt'd that fish in our garden pond(seperate from the koi pond) for about 2-3 weeks, just for observation and "just incase". After our second year with the pond we only bought koi from one source and in doing so we had the opertunity to observe those we wished to buy several days/weeks/months before brining them home... this was no guarantee that the fish were "clean" but through this we learned a lot about choosing healthy koi.

We still buy koi in the late fall so they are "QT'd" through the winter months. Those we bring in in the spring go through a 2 to 3 week quarantine period - mostly for a rest from their journey. If there were to be any problems we would notice in just a few days after their arrival an it's dealth with. We deal with two excellent sources for koi so our problems are very minimal,... mostly we just sit back and enjoy the new arrivals and get to know individuals.

Dave, QT is a place for rest, and it should be a comfortable place for the fish but also a safe place. There should never be anything in QT(or your pond) that the fish could injure itself on. There is a difference between QT and a hospital tank, but sometimes a QT turns into a hospital tank so it's important that the system you choose to use is able to very easily and well maintained - adding rockery/plants inhibits that. You did your best Dave, other than the decorative decor and predation issues you did very well :grin:

QT is a place to catch possilbe health problems, but even with a long QT period there is no guarantee that the new fish(or resident fish) will not succum to "something" once introduced into the main pond... for the most part there is nothing to worry about if a proper QT is done.... one thing to mull over is that if your QT is exceptional then your pond should be as well, taking a fish from QT into a less than ideal environment will cause issues.

So Tom, are you going to share with us your protocal?

[Merlin]

Well now that I have what I will call a reasonably sized QT (245 gallons) I intend to QT any new fish for a minimum of 5 weeks. During that time I will treat the QT as with the pond and do regular water changes (20% per week) and just keep and eye on them. :wink:

[Jackie Ramo]

Merlin do you have any plans in place to have cycled filter media ready for the QT.

My experience is bringing in new stressed fish or sick fish from thepond into a tank without properly cycled filtration only brings more headaches than most people can deal with.

[Tom C]

First NEVER trust any dealer or breeder qt your koi. I have got koi from some of the most well known dealers and breeder and the koi had parasites on them. This is way I would NEVER add a new koi to my pond or tanks without qt them myself.

I know you hear shot gun treatments are not good, but just about every dealer I know does them.

You asked how do I qt my new koi. I always start with a well cycled tank, never fresh water in it. I did use fresh water years ago and I seemed to have more problem that way. If I know I'm going to get new koi in, I ask the people I'm getting them from the water temp in his pond or tanks the koi are coming out of. Then to match that water temp in my qt tank. When the new koi come in it float them for half an hour then add then to the tank. I NEVER add the water from the bags into it. If the koi are not in the bags for hours I might dip them in PP at 200 ppm before adding them. I do not suggest this to you guys, because you can kill them real quick if you mess up. The koi will go into the tank and I will pull a few and scrape them the next day. I like to see if I can find something. 99% of the time I do. Then the koi will sit for 2 to 3 days in the tank. This will let them settle down a little. On the third day I treat them with PP at 2 ppm. I do this a few times over then next few day. Then I let them sit for a few more day, and treat them with proform-c. I do the three day treatment like the bottle said. Then a few 10% water changes over the next few days. Then they get treated with prazi pond. They will sit in the tank for another week with that in the water. Then they will get some 25% water changes over the next few days. Then they will get treat with dimilin. Again no water changes for a week. After that they sit with a salt level of maybe .2% until they come out of QT. I will leave them in qt for no less than 4 weeks most of the time 6 weeks. At that point they get scraped again. 99% of the time I will find nothing after that. If I do they stay in qt as long as they need it. If any of the koi looked stressed they all stay on qt longer. One other thing I always do now is heat cycle them also.

Right or wrong who knows. All I can say is I don't have sick koi after they come out of qt. This year I don't even need to set up a sick tank. I lost two very small koi this you to what, I don't know. Out of hundreds that's not bad at all.

Dave if you ask me Desafin sucks. I think more people kill fish with that then they save them. I just don't like it. Also if you just using Desafin it will not kill parasites like flukes. It might kill a few, but not a lot of them. I would also slow down on the water changes in the qt tank. I think 25% ever three days is stressful on fish in qt. I say that only if you have a well cycled filter. If you don't you might have to, to keep up with the ammonia spikes.

One other thing, NEVER use the same net, bowl, or anything else in other tanks or pond. I have a net and bowl for each tank I have. I also wash my hands before putting them in another tank. I know it's a little over kill, but it works. Also never qt new fish next to your pond.

Tom

[Jackie Ramo]

Tom, you do all those treatments even if you don't find the parasites that are affected by them? I can understand folks without a scope and knowledge of how to use it shotguning but wy treat for bugs that are not there? Also is the protocal for the home pond or the business tanks?

I've used Desafin with success but now use Proform C. Still not all meds are available when you need them and one must use what is there if the fish are sick.

[Terri]

I do agree with Tom whole heartedly about dealers and QT. Any dealer that tells you there is no need to QT your new fish ask them "why",... you won't be surprised by the answer but you'll know it's a line of bull :grin:
There are only a few dealers in our area that QT new arrivals properly.

The reality is most hobbyists do not QT - let alone heard of it. They buy a few fish and put them right in the pond with their present pets... whether they know/trust the dealer or not. This is changing but it's going to take some time I think. I believe part of a dealers responsibility is to educate their customers on fish health/care. Good dealers DO do this... but the reality is that once the customers leaves with the fish the dealer doesn't have much control... until the customer comes back complaining there is a problem, at which time most dealers hand them a bottle of "insert chem/med here" and send them on their merry way.

I think length of time for quarantine would depend on place of purchase, health state of the fish, the QT set up itself, and the final home/residents. Generally we talk about 4 to 6 weeks as "normal" or "minimum" for a QT period. But if you factor in KHV/SVC that's not long enough at all.... and the QT protocal is more involved.

Tom, you and I do QT very differently... but we both have achieved very good success with our way of doing things :)
Thanks for taking the time to tell us how you do quarantine.

[Jackie Ramo]

But Terri, you are my dealer!!! I know you only sell healthy fish, that doesn't mean an individual fish won't have problems but I am confident that the fish I buy from you are as healthy as you can make them. Yes, they still go into the tank for observation and to get to know them so a Q of sorts. Not every dealer is as consiencious as you are I agree. I don't feel I need to shot gun fish I buy from you. Never had one that had anything. Actually the only sick one, got something from me - !bonk How is Zoomer doing these days?

[Terri]

Zoomer is doing swimmingly :grin: those big beautiful fins are almost back to normal.... and hes' grown a few inches!

[Dave in Innisfil]

Interesting. Very interesting. And thanks for the praise, Terri. The German "know it all" in me sometimes takes a kick in the pants, and it shouldn't be at the expense of our fin-kids. Sometimes I should learn to ask more questions first, rather than ask for solutions later.

As we're getting frost warnings in my region already, my understanding is this is not the time of year to be adding any quality fish to our pond, so my quarantine pond and supplies are mothballed until next year. The preform is still under consideration as a permanent addition to our ponds, provided I can figure out how to on demand isolate it from the others. We enjoyed the up-close and personal observation of our quarantined koi, but it came at the expense of worry and energy. My first attempts at a DIY filter and DIY skimmer were both semi-successful, but will need design modifications to be more effective and less labour intensive. While I can concede that the frequency and volume of water changes may have seemed excessive, my rationale was fresh clean water is better than semi-filtered pond water. I use the same logic in my main ponds, and have enjoyed almost 4' visability most of the summer. Yes, I heard fish like green water, but I'm the one who has to look at it. And with all the West Nile Virus warnings.................

Now a confirmed pondaholic, I gravitate towards the pond section of most nurseries and garden centres. It's surprising how much conflicting information I have gotten in the past season on the do's and don'ts from self professed and appointed "experts". As a newbie, it was and still sometimes is, hard to determine which gamble to take. No, I won't ever buy 100 feeder goldfish at Big Al's and dump them into the ponds again. I got off very lucky this time. But how do you explain to a friend who brings you an expensive fish that you're not equipped to quarantine it for 5 weeks ? I got off lucky that time too. I probably got off lucky adding 7 of Phishi's mud pond koi after only a two week quarantine as well. In fact, considering my lack of pondertise and predation, it's a wonder I have any fish at all.

[Jackie Ramo]

Terri glad that Zoomer is doing well. I'm surprised that such a pretty fish doesn't have a new home by now.

Dave, even good advice is based on the givers experience. For example Tom's advice is excellent and works well for him. What works for me is a more hands off technique that I believe Terri shares. Both are right for the person giving the advice. When reading the boards or talking to folks at the stores, one always asks, does this person know first hand, are they trying to sell me something.. which in some stores is the main goal. One also has to fit the pond and its maintenance into ones own life. If it becomes to much work than the pond and fish cease to be enjoyable.

[Busy B]

I haven't bought any fish in over a year...and how I've gotten so lucky in the 3 years that I've had them is beyond me. Normally just floated the bag and wished for the best. More nervous now to do the same. No scope...wouldn't know what to look for if I had one.

And a few weeks/months of QT is my summer. If I do buy more, it has to coincide when the fish go back to the pond so the QT is available, then it would be almost time to bring the others back in. Too bad you can't take chances.

[Tom C]

Tom, you do all those treatments even if you don't find the parasites that are affected by them? I can understand folks without a scope and knowledge of how to use it shotguning but wy treat for bugs that are not there? Also is the protocal for the home pond or the business tanks?


Yes and no, it's based on how many koi I am QT. If I get a shipment of a number of koi in yes, always. It's to easy to over look bugs on 50 to 1000 koi. If I'm just getting a few koi in I do it different. When you bring in just a few koi, your able to look at them a little better. I pull them up and scrape them a lot more. But most of the time I still treat with proform-c and prazi. If I do get just a few koi in they stay in QT longer because of how I treat them. If you have a scope and know how to use it, don't do shot gun treatments. Most people don't have a scope, and those that do, miss parasites a lot.

Tom

[Jackie Ramo]

Well I admit to having a cheap scope which I've only seen ich in... and only when Terri pointed it out :) I have a tendancy to treat on symptoms rather than evidence but then I know my fish, had them for years, easier for me to figure out what is wrong than to have 500 - 1000 fish arrive one day flashing.

What about your home protocol Tom? Or do you bring them home after they've been to the office?

[Busy B]

So I read somewhere that 4 weeks was the golden number because that's the life cycle of most parasites..true?

[Terri]

Sort of Busy,.... temp does come into play with lifecycles. It's not the time it's how it's done. There are good Qt's and bad Qt's and so-so Qt's. You need to look at your pond and judge the needs of the fish(present and forthcoming). Whatever the Qt set up is and there does become an issue with fish health you will see it in far less than 4 weeks, especially if the Q setup is not up to snuff.

Knowing how to pick good solid healthy fish helps. Having a good healthy resident population helps even more. Having both pond and Qt at optimum/close to equal levels... well I assume you see where I'm going.