Goromo

[Terri]

We've had Patch since 2001(I think), he was 6" when we got him and a total spook! He's now 19" and daddy to a few fry we have. We really liked Patch even with his skittish nature, never a dull moment with him around! He and our soragoi(Sora) are quite the pond chums :-)

Anyway, to the point of this post.... Patch is no longer a goromo :mad:

1st pic Nov2004 2nd pic Aug05
http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/PatchNov2004.JPG http://backyardpuddle.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/PatchAug2005.JPG

We haven't a clue why but he's now a shiromugi :-? He went into the outside koi pond in May looking like pic#1 and we pulled him this week looking like pic#2.
We were told Patch was from the breeder Sakai, came to the dealer through a broker.

Anyone EVER seen a goromo lose ALL it's colour in just a couple of weeks? Wasn't fun to watch.... :(

[TASSAJARA]

Terry,

Sorry about the bad luck, he or she was a beautiful goromo.

The sick fish with the head down I have posted was 6" also when we brought him home 2 1/2 years ago. He was a Kohaku and had 4 steps with the potential to split to 5 which he did and I was all excited after about 2 years of waiting. Then he continued changing till he lost all his red and looks much like yours, solid white gin rin. He lost all color in about 2 or 3 weeks also.

We can't afford to buy them BIG so we will have to keep on rolling the dice I guess.

[Jackie Ramo]

Sorry to see Patch lose his patch!! My goodness what a change. Mostly we think of them changing young but he's not a baby anymore.

[Ian]

Ahhh.. bugger.... $400 I paid at 6" and aint HE a beauty! A Japanese import with no real breeders name. That is what we get when you judge a book by it's cover. Lesson learned :grin: The price paid for a 6" koi :frisbee: Lesson learned.
In a nut shell ......Booooooooooooooo

[Cinnamon]

Terri your fish now looks just like my Herculese. He was a beautiful Kohaku. All his red disappeared in about a week. It is amazing to see them every day and watch the color disappear. At least I didn't pay $400 for it. It is one I bought from Brett.

[kgt3]

Damn Ian!!!!!

That was a nice Goromo. Do u have any theories as to what might have happened? Environmental change.....nutritional changes......illness.......
I have never read a single theory on why a decent looking koi will lose all of its color in such a short period of time. Just have a hard time believeing that it is genetic, with color loss happening so rapidly.
This happened to me a few years ago with a sanke with impecable bloodlines.
He fell Ill for a week or two.....never figured out what caused it......After his recovery he lost all of his color within a matter of weeks.

[Cinnamon]

Well Brett explained it to me as being genetic. He said it does happen to all the Koi. He said it is genetic. My water quality was perfect and had been all the time. Mine was not sick or ill in any way. I was worried about it and called Brett. He has a fine reputation when it comes to Koi is why I trusted him. He says it happens to Koi from Japan as well. It is something underlying in their genes. No matter the blook line. That is the way he explained it to me. I am not an expert by no means. :)

[Terri]

Well I posted this elsewhere and here is the response...
http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag/msg/106182.html

[Brady Brandwood]

Hi Terri & Ian,

Spawning, random or planned, is a major "trigger" for color loss in Koi that are predisposed, or Koi that have weak color genes. After spawning, the water can go very acidic, have an ammonia spike,... or other parameters change quickly,... and also there are many hormonal changes happening in the Koi involved in the spawning - both internal, and in the water they're in,... as well as physical exhaustion.

On Koi with good solid genes there really is nothing that will change their wonderful coloration,... but some Koi with a poor genetic draw of straws will keep their "Koi colors" only until a "trigger" of some sort pushes them over the edge,... and they lose their beni and sometimes sumi.

I know we read and hear a lot of "thoughts" on what to look for in young Koi that will have good strong coloration, BUT it really is a 1 in about 200 chance that you will choose a weak Koi. The risk and the gamble, and the possibility that we might raise a true "Gem" is one of the thrills of Koi keeping,... I think.

I feel a Koi that is geneticlly predisposed to lose its color will eventually lose it,... when the condition comes up. Keeping it in the very best possible conditions will allow you to enjoy its colors longer, but you don't know which Koi is the "bad seed" until it shows itself. Which is just one reason larger Koi are more expensive,... they have proven their "Koi quality", the risk factor with them drops.

I think with your Goromo you likely had a random spawn or some other condition that caused a rapid change in water or rush of hormones that weeded it out as one of 200 with poor color. Difficult for you to control.

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

[Bonnie Hale]

I have a comment.

In 2000, they year we moved to NC, I bought 2 very expensive doitsu showas. They were 18 inches at the time because I planned to breed them. They are from Japan and were not cheap by any means. They are brother and sister.

They went through quarantine together and live in the same pond.

In 2003 the male lost every bit of HI, not so bad because he is a handsome doitsu shiro utsuri now. The female to this day has not lost a bit of her color.

So this makes me question the genetics theory and the water quality issue.

And of course, I am by no means an expert but why did he loose his HI and she did not??


Interesting post..........

Bonnie

[Jackie Ramo]

Hiya Bonnie!!

When do you think the pattern is set or hardwired? I posted this question, very badly, on another thread but no one answered. Seeing fry develop pattern so early one I have was still translucent when the pattern started, the rest are developing pattern now, is theirs weak and his strong?

[Busy B]

That is quite the drastic change...all theory's make sense but I'm guessing you didn't want a platinum in the pond...and ouch! to the expense of a 6 in fish.

[Terri]

Hi Bonnie :-) nice to see you still hanging around.
Genetics, it's a huge topic and one that goes far beyond my general understanding, but I think I "get it" enough to comprehend why colour loss happens. Your male may have been a few DNA strans short for keeping/having solid red while his sister got the better end of the code ;) If you think back, compare the reds of the two koi - you've most likely heard this before that beni should be layered, like coats of paint... this is good stable beni, any translucent, faded edging(sashi/kiwa), or soft red may be cause for concern in later development. This is what I have learned with Patch... after Ian and I went back and looked at Patchs "baby" pic upto present we understood better what we were seeing... weak beni(red).

Thank you very much Brady for taking the time to respond... as always very well put! :grin: I tend to agree that there was a triggor, that was the flock spawning leading to minor waterQ issues(even though I busted my hump to keep it in check, over worked the well pump and drained the well several times! LOL) which in turn led to green water.. which I had forgot to mention before. It was during the green-up that we began to notice Patchs red was fading... all down hill from there to a solid white fish.

We've moved Patch inside to our 2500gallon tank, he seems happy enough cruising around with a bunch of 1 and 2 yr olds.

Busy, we have a platinum ogon in the pond, it's Butter(the only butterfly). While Patch is white he is not metallic so this makes him a ShiroMugi - plain white koi. I still like him this way, ... he has that beautiful shape I so much like in a koi, a terrific thick tail and a huge personality.

Jackie, I answered your thread :twisted: ... even if I haven't much of a clue! LOL

[Brady Brandwood]

Hi Bonnie,

"In 2003 the male lost every bit of HI, not so bad because he is a handsome doitsu shiro utsuri now. The female to this day has not lost a bit of her color.

So this makes me question the genetics theory and the water quality issue.

And of course, I am by no means an expert but why did he loose his HI and she did not??"

First we have to keep in mind the ratio of roughly 1 in every 200 Koi is predisposed to lose its color, so brother & sister, parent combinations have little to do with this ratio I'm speaking of. Also, male Koi are known to "color up" or develop their coloration sooner than female Koi,... so it's reasonable that a male Koi that is predisposed to lose its color would lose it sooner than a female Koi that is predisposed to lose her color - also since a male Koi reaches color maturity faster than a female Koi we can see that color development is influenced by hormones,... testosterone,... etc.

For Koi that are predisposed, or easily capable of losing their coloration, they only need a "trigger" to set this off,... a random spawn in a pond offers a lot of potential triggers for this,... such as poor water (from the spawning), and also hormonal changes (from the spawning).

Best Wishes,
Brady Brandwood

[tj]

<---- stealth mode or mulitiple personality disorder (take your pick :twisted: )

Brady, would you please explain more about hormonal influences?

Terri

[Brady Brandwood]

Hi TJ,

A simple way to look at it is to examine "Male pattern baldness" its causes, and cures. :)

In Koi spawning though, hormones are released into the water both by the male Koi and by the female Koi,... and these hormonal "signals" cause reactions such as the release of eggs in the female,... & they let the male Koi know the female is "ready",... these hormonal actions and reactions cause powerful changes in the Kois body chemistries. Consider how easily you can pick a Koi up with your hands when it is in "spawning mode",... it is single-minded at that point,... this is just one example of how powerful hormonal signals can be during spawning. Back to basic color loss,... all we're looking for is a change or stressor that "triggers" the loss of color in a Koi that was due to lose it color (at some point) anyway.

Since Koi live in a liquid environment their body chemistries are easily changed by the water they are in. Spawning can be triggered by water temperature changes,... by PH changes,... and these "signals" start a snowball of hormonal signals - its a complex array of cause & effect,... which is why I also feel we often link color loss with the use of Baking Soda in ponds,... it cause water parameters to change too quickly,... which trigger other changes in the Kois hormones.

Best Wishes,
CW the cafeteria worker,... Brady Brandwood's alter ego
http://www.fototime.com/{75B2F9B8-F777-459E-8D28-1C9EFBB3DD84}/picture.JPG

[kgt3]

!!!!!!!!!! lol !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought that was some knew type of Brady koi catching apparel.

Kiefer

[Jackie Ramo]

Terri, sorry I didn't meanno one relplied :uhoh: perhpas no one replied with the answer I was looking for is a better way of putting it.

How does one know if a koi is predisposed to lose its colour or pattern? Are those with the pattern showing right away when still transulcent winners or losers?

[Terri]

:lol:


Thanks Brady :grin:

[Terri]

I know Jackie, just razzin' ya :grin:

[ozzyrockman]

Is it possible that Patch has something wrong with its liver function? I am looking at the coloration of the head and fins and it seems that they have turned a yellowish tan hint and the body seems to appear more pail white even with the last picture being darker. Just wondering if that might be something worth looking into. Don't give up on Patch just yet. We have a Gin Matsuba that was as pail as Patch and he is now the biggest koi in our pond and his colors are still coming back from being very sick in Nov 03. Allen

[Terri]

Hi Allen :-)
Patch typically shows that when netted/bowled, being he's all white in the photo you just see it more... what you don't see(unless you look really close) in the photo is how red streaked he was, his caudal fin goes very pink ... he doesn't like to be caught and can be a real bugger to net!(he's famous here for jumping/leaping over the net)

Since he's been in back inside his skin/fins are very white, there is still a slight discolouration to his head but I've not seen a shiromugi with out this. I'm sure if there were something wrong with his health we would've noticed the symptoms. LOL He's like a big white shark cruising around in there, only two 2yr old yamabuki females come close to his size.

[Bonnie Hale]

Both of the photos are old, taken in 2001

http://www.bonniesplants.com/my_fish/flash/flashgrapefruit.jpg

Above doitsu showa turned shiro utsuri

http://www.bonniesplants.com/my_fish/flash/flash.jpg

Above doitsu showa

You can see just a bit of red on the mouth of the Showa turned shiro. That bit of red disappeared the following year.


Actually Teri, a friend sent me the link or else I would have not known about the post. I have not been to any boards since February and won't get back to them until shipping slows down in mid/late September.

Bonnie

[luke frisbee]

terri,
They are not caled Comeromo or comesanke :-P

[Merlin]

Interesting thread guys, sorry about your Koi terri, that must have been a bit of a blow to you. Lets hope that the colour does return as it was a nice looking Koi. :)

[Terri]

terri,
They are not caled Comeromo or comesanke :-P :lol: I get it



Thanks Merlin :)

Bonnie I think I remember you posting about these two on KV, the photo's look familiar.