Sick 22" male gin rin

[TASSAJARA]

Hear is some info on the pond and the sick fish.

Sunday night all the fish looked ok and eat as usual. Other than some suspected gill flukes that I had planed to salt Monday anyway. I woke up Monday morning to one gin rin that when still has it's head lower than it's tail. It will stay still for an average of a minute or two then it swims in a level jerking motion from the middle of it's body for about 8-10 feet then stops again and the head goes down and tail up. It continues to do so constantly. It keeps it's right ventral fin clamped most of the time when still or swimming. It's gill plate when still stays open at the bottom some of the time. more than the healthy ones anyway, but does close when swimming. The only other visual signs I can see appear to be some very light, hard to see, pinkish color, around both sides where the body meets the dorsal fin and on a few spots on the right side of the body. Some spots that looked like damage from flashing. Don't know. It also looks like a small swelling on it's right side, hard to tell or coincidence, don't want to miss lead.

Monday morning I started the salt at 0.1%. Tuesday at 0.2%. Wednesday, 7/27, the salt is at 0.3% and I have added 40ml of SupaVerm at 1200 hours.

No change in symptoms as of 0800 hours 7/28.

Below are some data on the pond and water quality.

Thank you for your help, michael

4000 gal. pond with bead filter, three water falls for O2 and 9 fish from 24" to 20"

Water conditions are:
Temp. = 86F/30C
PH = 8
O2 = 7 mg/l about saturated
NO2= <0.3 mg/l
NH3+4 = 0mg/l
NO3 = 12.5 - 25 mg/l

[Jackie Ramo]

Well Michael seems you have one sick fish there. Head down tails up is often an internal bacterial infection but it could also be a heavy heavy fluke load. Any chance of a scrape and scope on him?

Did you confirm flukes before treating with the salt and supraverm?

[TASSAJARA]

No scope Jackie, but it looks like I'm getting closer to getting one.

From what I have read I think your right, it looks like an internal bacterial infection, I guess I was hoping for something easer. Not really prepared for all this, does that sound unusual.

No confirmation Jackie, just saw most of the fish starting to flash more than usual. You can see their gill plates scratched on the sides from the rubbing. Other than that they are very lively. I was planning on doing the treatment Monday anyway and then I woke to the head down tail up.

[Jackie Ramo]

Michael, net the fish and have a good look at his gills. It may be just the fluke infestaion but it will give us a better idea of what is going on. Check the belly for redness and any sores etc. Pics would be wonderful.

[Terri]

NO2 readings are worrisome... hopefully it's just a small hic-up but cut back on feeding... I'd mention a good waterchange and filter cleaning but since you've already added Supaverm that's out for the next 7 days.

I agree with Jackie, net the fish and have a close once over. Picture's would be helpful.

With your temp that high along with a higher pH and the NO2 level, this in itself can cause the minor behaviour you are noticing... but I also would suspect parasitic activity considering the head shaking and clamped fins on the one koi - scrape and scope would confirm on the head-down koi.

Next comes detective work, why and how did this start? What's been going on over the past couple of weeks to lead up to this?

[Terri]

Just took a gander over a KV, just so we're all on the same page and don't miss anything here's the link to Michael's thread there...

http://www.koivetforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17620

[TASSAJARA]

Had a hard time catching him but I took a closer look and snapped some pixs. The gills looked nice and red inside but there looks to be some mucus on the bottom outside edge of the plate. He also has lost some color on the head and fins by turning a little yellow, stress?(he is a solid white gin rin). I guess the bad part is you can see his tiny veins showing through, I guess that is what they are. From what little I've read this is pointing to an internal bacterial. I wish I knew more.

I have attached a couple of pixs. Hope you can see the veins and the gill shot, all I had was a black tub. I need to add that to my scope shopping list.

tks, michael

[Terri]

I'll take your word on the veining, I don't see it in the pictures. Veining can be caused by poor waterQ, parasites like Fluke or Trich, bacterial infection(septis but usuallyt he fish is also "pink" along with veining), and stress. Colour is definately off and this too can be caused by poor waterQ/stress(poor breeding too) but with the excess mucus it would lead one to believe that parasites are in/around the gills.

What says REC?

[TASSAJARA]

Hi Terri,

I have not got a reply from REC yet.

I forgot to mention his bottom was clean. Other than the veining with the pinkish skin and yellow shading he is clamping only his right ventral fin. Once in a while he will do a head stand and shake his head or mouth like he is having a seizure.

I think the water Q is good, the readings are where they have been for 2 1/2 years with no trouble. That's why I think it might have been the flukes to start.

tks again, michael

[Jackie Ramo]

Well all his symptoms could be flukes and since he's being treated for that I'm not sure other than keeping an eye on him. He looks stressed in the pic but then he probably was :roll:

The supraverm treatment was yesterday morning? How are the other fish acting? It is not uncommon to see additional flashing as the flukes die off.

[TASSAJARA]

Hi Jackie,

Good question, With all the attention to the head down tail up I failed to notice that they are flashing allot less. I have only seen one flash one time since yesterday.

I read that the SupaVerm will do the job in 3 days and I also read in 12 hours. Time will tell with others but for now everybody else looks like happy campers.

tks, michael

[Jackie Ramo]

I'd be looking for marked improvement in the head down fish by tomorrow if it is flukes only.

[TASSAJARA]

Yep, I keep looking at him wishing I could do something more but we are going to have to wait till tomorrow and see.

tks again, michael

[TASSAJARA]

No change in status as of 0700.

[Jackie Ramo]

If there is no change then I think its more of a bacterial infection and probably injections are the only route. Haven't seen the KV thread yet so what says REC and the gang?

[TASSAJARA]

Hi Jackie,

The head down fish is still alive. He will sit at the bottom and rest for a while then go back to swimming in a big circle.

Now I am totally confused, Saturday and Sunday I saw three of the other fish (males) chasing and pushing the head down fish a couple of times as if they were spawning. I was afraid they would finish him off. Would they not chase a female unless it was giving a sent or do they chase on body language? You could see the head down fish having trouble not having the normal strength. My brother in-law mentioned he has had egg lock with some of his tropical, but I would have bet the head down fish is a male, not to mention so late in the season. He does have what looks like a small swelling on the right side where his ventral fin is located. (the only fin clamped) I do not think the clamped fin and swelling are coincidence, I just don't know why. It's just when I think it must be a bacterial infection, I see something else to confuse me.

If you have see or herd of anything like this, please help.
michael

[Jackie Ramo]

Michael, sorry I have been out of town.

Without a picture or something it is hard for me to guess what is wrong with this fish. I've had sick fish be pushed by healthy fish but in such a way that it seemed a gentle nedge to keep them upright rather than spawning...

Just home now and have not checked to see if you got better answers at KV.

[TASSAJARA]

Whow, don't know what happen to my notes entered yesterday but this is the latest status.

Found a KHA, Tks, Lee

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lee B is a KHA in my area and called me last night. She was a great help and a very nice lady I might add.

Lee reminded me about all the thunder/lighting storms we've been having and asked if we might have had a lighting strike in the area. That's when I remember the night before I found the fish head down, we had a lighting strike very close. Close enough to damage the underwater camera. Coincidence, probably not. He sounds like he might have a broken back Lee mentioned.

Lee suggested I could do the 200 hot picante ppm PP bath to rule out any bugs but I decided to wait another day or two and see what develops before I dip him in the salsa. What is more stressful or less, I don't know.

Due to my schedule changing I had to change theirs, so I did the 50% water change today instead of tomorrow.
Used ClorAm-X for the 2000 gals and it was great. Our tap water has chloramines with 1.5 mg/l of ammonia. As for the test kit I use, It's a Tetra Koi Analyst set and I was able to measure o.o mg/l ammonia and nitrite. Now we wait some.

tks again to all for helping
__________________
tks, michael
Stay confused, it will keep you busy.

[Terri]

Now there is something we don't often have to deal with... sure hope your koi doesn't have a broken back Michael :(

LeeB is a terrific lady with an infectious laugh :-) Very happy you two have hooked up, that one is smarter than she thinks :grin:

[Jackie Ramo]

This is why local help is sooo important. Water is different as is weather conditions. Glad you caught up with Lee, a treasure.

BTW just so you don't think you are losing your mind, the postings you made yesterday were PM's to me :)

[TASSAJARA]

Jackie,

Tks, I guess I only lost hafe of my mind with the other hafe out to lunch. LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

Welcome to my life :lol: :-?

How's the fish doing?

[TASSAJARA]

Hi Jackie,

Well things were pretty much the same, not better but not worse. Then this morning, I feed them some food to get a closer look at everybody and things were good except for Lucy (that's the sick guy). About 15 min. later, I look and see Lucy swimming across the top, it looked like he was trying to eat some food but it was all gone. They all go around crazy looking for that last piece and that's what he looked like. I feed him a little food and he swallowed some of it. I got a little excited but it was premature. It was then obvious that he was not looking for food but he was having some kind of an event. He had his whole head out of the water trying to breath or something. It looked like the flash of light before burning out and that's when my wife had to go inside. Anyway, he is back on the bottom and his breathing looks normal. I was able to get a good look from directly on top and what looks like swelling has not changed. Looking at the line down his dorsal fin it looks like he just might have a broken back. What to do? what to do? I hope patience wins.

[Terri]

Michael, if your Lucy sustained injury from a lightening strike - along with the suspected broken back there could very well be internal bleeding....? Maybe this is the bloated area you are noticing... Check with REC and Lee about the possiblity of using a needle to try and drain some body fluid from that area. The piping(head out of water) can be a indicator that there is a gill problem - parasites are the usually suspects. I'm not sure if you read my thread about Ripper,... he died a little while ago - was spooked badly and must have caused some internal injury(not visible), he did as you describe Lucy doing "He had his whole head out of the water trying to breath or something.", this went on for quite some time before he died. Not really the same circumstances as Lucy.

I hope your Lucy Koi comes around, it's not easy to watch them when there is something wrong... I can honestly sympathize....

[Jackie Ramo]

Parasites will attack the weakest fish in the pond and certainly you have one that fits the situation. Has Lee had a hands on the fish as yet? Is there any pics? Had to tell what swelling could be with just one word...

[TASSAJARA]

Looks like no change, have not seen him piping but the one time. Just lays on the bottom for a while and then goes for a swim. I guess this could go on for a while, but not eating will catch up sooner than later.

No, Lee has not had her hands on the fish. I don't want to put her out for nothing.

I would think if he had any bacteria infection he would be dead by now. I guess other than scrape/scope for bugs that might have made it through the salt and SupaVerm, there is not much more that can be done. I will check with REC and Lee about the possibility of using a needle to try and drain some body fluid from that area, I'm just worried about any extra stress.

[Jackie Ramo]

Merlin, one of our members here has done this with a fish. I'm sure he would be glad to help with any questions you mau have as well.

http://backyardpuddle.com/forum/showthread.php?t=326

[TASSAJARA]

Tks Jackie,

I looked at Merlin's post and very much admirer him for his efforts, it says allot about how compassionate he is. At least his efforts were not totally in vain by posting a post mortem. I could not view the pics of the autopsy for some reason.

I attached a pic I have of Lucy showing her right side where the swelling is. It's nothing like the one on Merlin's post of Lucky. In fact, it is hard to see unless from top. (that pic did not come out to good) I guess I'm mostly scared of causing more harm than good without having a good indication of what direction to go or not go.

[Jackie Ramo]

Michael it is quite hard to diagnose a fish from a distance especially if they are atypical like yours. I can see no lump in the picture but it is a pretty fish.

Meeting Lee and getting her help with this fish will serve not only this fish but all the rest of them so don't look at it as a waste of her time. She took all those courses so she could do this and help people.

If Lee takes the time to scrape and scope and teaches you how to do it you are then able to help not only your own fish but some one else as well.

[TASSAJARA]

Yes, I understand, It's like trying to get an estimate on some body work over the phone, can't be done.

My wife started a new school and she said that they have two microscopes so I'm going to check it out to see if they can be used. If so, I will get with Lee and see what her schedule is like for this weekend.

[Jackie Ramo]

I'm sure Lee has a travel kits he carries that includes a scope. But check with her and see. The longer the fish goes without food the weaker it will become.

[TASSAJARA]

Hi Jackie,

I'm sure she has a road kit but I thought if I had what I would be using it might be better for me.

It's a little long but I pasted Lee's reply and mine from KV.

tks, michael

Michael,
Well, at least he hasn't started to lay over yet. A fish can go months without eating; that's not a problem. He could just be gathering strength.

Has there been any change in him? Is he swimming better/worse (when he *does* swim)? Is there a kink in his back? What I'm trying to ascertain is whether his back may be broken, of if he just got shocked.

I really don't think he has parasites of any sort; after talking with you, I think it's the lightning shock . . . if it was minor and he just got zapped, he *could* make a full recovery. Or he could become a magnet for every cootie in the pond because he's weak.

There's not much more to do other than to keep an eye on him and see how he progresses. Keep us advised.

Lee

Hi Lee,

No, not much change when swimming. Looking from his top, if you look down his left side from his head to his tail it looks stream line like it should. The right side goes from his head down to about his ventral fin then it goes in a little down to his tail making it look swollen. If you look straight down his top through his dorsal fin it looks straight. As for his coloring, he doesn't look to bad, don't see much veining or any other physical damage or sign of stress. He looks like he is breathing ok. I agree, I think it might have been a little lighting. If it broke his back or not I really can't say, never seen one.

Please let me know when you have a chance to show me how to scrape/scope the fishies. My wife said that the new school she is teaching at (Long Leaf) has two scopes, one that will show on a computer or TV, possibly something like you were telling me about

[Jackie Ramo]

Thanks Michael. I'm short on time these days and KV is taking the hit, heck they need a break from me bugging them anyway :grin: I know if I pop in I'll need hours to catch up and so far haven't found them...

Although I agree a fish can live for months without eating, starving is not a nice way to go and it weakens an already weak fish. Wish I was closer, I'd buy the beer and sit and watch Lee work.

[TASSAJARA]

A Molson or Labatt Blue would be wonderfull, but I guess we have to be practical once in a while. Darn It.

I will give him a couple of more days and then.....then....I don't know what then. :-?

[Jackie Ramo]

Try a few shrimp to tempt him.

What no Coors Light??? Corona? Moosehead? Alexander Keith's??? :frisbee:

[Tom C]

Looks like nitrite problems to me. Have you tested for nitrites?

Tom

[TASSAJARA]

Jackie, not buying the beer, OK, It's probably going to be Silver Bullets then.LOL :lol:

I know without a scope we can't be positive but I think there were two problems. I think the original trouble was gill flukes and then the lighting.

They were flashing December of 2003 and I suspected gill flukes then. After salt, PP and Prazi, I got things back to normal. Since then, things have been good till I noticed them starting to flash again about 6 weeks ago, but no clamped fins this time. I had planed to salt and try SupaVerm instead of Prazi due to the cost and that's when I woke to Lucy with his head down tail up. We did have lighting hit the pond because when I went to look at Lucy through the camera, I noticed it was damaged, the picture was very dark. That's when I started the post and treatment with salt and SupaVerm. Have not seen them flashing anymore since first treatment of SupaVerm. I know what the UK says but I did two treatments due to not having a scope. As for Lucy with head down and tail up, I think it was not a coincidence that he was fine Sunday night and Monday morning he was head down after the lighting struck. In fact, Lucy was one of the fish I never saw flash before as the others did.

I know, It's getting long but it has a happy ending. This morning I fed the fish and guess who came up and eat some, that's right, Lucy. He had a little trouble with coordination but it was very clear he wanted some food and did manage to get down about ten or fifteen pellets of food. I think this is a good sign but not going to get to excited, not out of the woods yet but definitely going in the right direction. Do not see the mucus as before either. Finally, no, I did not do the PP bath, I thought he was a little stressed for much of anything and now thinking he might have a broke back I did not want to put him through netting and handling unless there was no alternative. The pond salt is at 0.22% for now and I will probably let it go down as I do water changes, I have plants I need to get back in the pond.

Hi Tom,
Yes, I tested for nitrites, It's just that the lowest reading on my test kit from Tetra only reads down to <0.3mg/l The manuel says that the nitrite levels should not exceed 0.2mg/l. Even though, I have not had any trouble as long as the reading was <0.3mg/l on the test color, I will loook for a test kit that goes to 0.0mg/l.

[Jackie Ramo]

Michael, eating is a very good sign!!! Also being able to move enough to eat!!

[TASSAJARA]

Yep, not like me, I usualy have trouble moving after eating. :lol:

[TASSAJARA]

I have more good news for a follow-up. Lucy is making an attempt to eat at every feeding and he is getting more pellets every time, it's just his coordination that needs to progress. Looking more and more like a lighting strike.

Jackie, took your advise and fed them some shrimp. Lucy did not get any but I woke a sleeping giant. At first, it was new and nobody was going for it, then, the Chagoi turned into the biggest HOG. I hope they still like shokoi after that. :lol:

Lee mentioned she would show me some wet lab stuff when the weather cools down a little, looking forward to it.

Lucy says tks againg for all the support and help.

[Jackie Ramo]

You'll have to teach Lucy to hand feed so he gets his share. Glad he is improving even if it is slowly.

[Merlin]

Hi Michael

Glad to see things are improving , no mater how hard I keep looking at your photos, I still can not see the swelling :wink: . it would be a great help if you could net him and take a few closer shots from all angles Ideally if you could knock him out and do your scrapes at the same time ( obviously when a Microscope becomes available) also if you could feel his underbelly and let us know if it is squishy or hard to the touch :). I too would hold back on trying to drain him, until such time that you can obtain a correct diagnosis of his problem.

It is interesting that you have now mentioned Lightning as possible cause for your Koi's behaviour. As mentioned in the Lucky thread I have a Golden Orfe of approx 10", who suffered a damaged spine due to lightning ( as I was informed by his previous owner). He behaves in the same manner as your Koi , head down, bit of a loner and like to stay in one area of the pond, but if he is disturbed or (he hears the food container when I rattle it on the side of the pond,) he is up and swiming, albeit in a jerky sort of way.

He has been in my pond for over a year now, still seems content and still a bugger to catch :( . ( I just tried to net him so I could show you a photo) but he is too quick for me.

Please keep us informed on how he is doing, and don't give up until he does, as long as he is eating OK, just keep an eye on him.

EDIT: Just sneaked up on him :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/Chateauwizard/Bendy2.jpg

[TASSAJARA]

Hi Merlin,

I was just checking on this old thread and noticed your reply. Lucy is now called Lighting Lou. He is male so I guess it was the right thing to do. Lou definitely looks like he broke his back with the lighting; he looks like your Golden Orfe. I pasted a link to another post about my Chagoi with milky skin, you can see Lou in one of the pic I posted, he is the white gin rin that looks like he has scoliosis.

Anyway, he is eating very well but now I think he has koi pox.


http://www.koivetforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18643

[TASSAJARA]

Well, we had services for Lou last night and he was buried in the back yard for fertilizer. :(

He had stopped coming to eat when the water got below 65F (about 2 month ago) and has eat only twice since then. He would still get a burst of energy once in a while and swim around the pond and then go back to his spot below the fall and lay on the bottom. It was getting hard to watch the poor guy. You could see he was developing some atrafee from the broken back and swimming was getting harder. Yesterday afternoon I noticed he was having trouble and was floating at the top on his side and about 4 of the other fish started trying to help him by pushing him around. He was limp with no fight left. When I got closer I noticed he had turned yellow in his head and fins and you could see yellow and black coloration through his body area. It looked like his injuries had finally caught up with him. At that time I decided it was time to put him down.

It was hard to bury him but it was harder to see him with no quality of life struggling.

[Jackie Ramo]

Michale I am sorry that poor Lou didn't make it. It is so hard to lose a pet after such a struggle. I agree one can not leave them to suffer once hope is gone.

[TASSAJARA]

Thank you Jackie, Even though you know it is the right thing to do, it is hard. I’m trying to focus on new fish now for the spring, nothing like little guys to light up your day.

[Jackie Ramo]

Yes, nothing like babies to make us smile, be they human, dog or fish. Not sure who sells in your area except Gene can't be too far away. Perhpas Luke will have a suggestion or two.... he usually does. Now Keifer sells fish, and very nice ones. You've seen his videos posted here I am sure.

Im sure there are others but I'm only into promoting our members business :smile: