Caretaker fish

[Dave in Innisfil]

Can anyone suggest why I can't add suckers or small catfish to my ponds to help keep them clean, or make a suggestion as to what I can add to help besides crayfish and mussels ?

I know catfish grow quickly, and are prone to eating everything. I guess that includes feeder goldfish and probably some plant life. But I added them to a large aquarium and they did a better job than the undergravel filter.

[Terri]

Suckers(pleco's or loaches) are primarily tropical fish so you would have to get them out come early fall and house them indoors for winter(not as easy as it sounds). While young most eat algae and very small critters but into adulthood their diets change and some become preditory. (they do not eat the mulm that collects in your pond just add to it)

Catfish are great fish, I have two in my 100 gal aquarium... which is where they will stay until they get to big and I have to rehome them. Yes they will eat everything and anything that fits into thier mouths, but not the mulm/ditris that accumilates in your pond. Once they find they can get a "free" meal they will take pellet food before most else... why add to the competition for your other fish(pets).

Dave there is only one creature that can keep your pond clean... that's you ;-) Sure there are a few aquatics you can add like trapdoor snails, plec's, crayfish, etc., but really what you are doing is adding more to your bioload (what goes in must come out :grin:) There is no "out" to doing regular maintenance on your pond, it's a closed system and must be tended to to keep the water in good shape for it's inhabitants.

Catfish would be a better choice than pleco's. I know of several ponders who keep sturgeon with their koi too.

Choice is yours though, your pond.

[Jackie Ramo]

Terri is right, food goes in, food comes out... no escape from that.

[Busy B]

Do catfish or plecos suck on the slimecoat of the koi?

[Terri]

Busy plec's can and will attach themselves to koi and goldfish(or any fish) if they do not have an ample food source available. Years ago we had a common plec(can't remember the LL#) who grew quite large living with our Oscar. We fed the Oscar live fish(goldfish and minnows) on a regular basis. Plecs are primarily nocternal, several nights we would see him up on the glass wall of the tank with a goldfish or minnow pinned down while he had a feast. He enjoyed cichlid pellets too.

The issue with catfish is not nessecarily preditory for koi or goldfish if they are of a good size in comparison... but because catfish have those lovely needle rays on their fins they can and do cause injury to the other fish, especially during feeding time.

I think if one had the space(like a large natural pond) then a diverse species would be beneficial over all... but if you want to enjoy your koi(or goldfish or orfe) in your backyard pond then leave it at that.. anything else just puts more onto the bio load - which means more work for the fish keeper(but hey if that is ok with you then by all means do it).

[Dave in Innisfil]

Last year on a salesman's recommendation, I bought a dozen snails. About a half dozen survived, and seem to have doubled in size. But somewhere I read that you'd have to have huge quantites of them if they were to do any actual good to the pond. I'd add more if I thought they were really doing something.

Because I've been in and out of our pond several times now, the idea of being stuck by catfish feelers is discouraging. I might add one, so hopefully there's no chance of reproduction. One of our trout ponds had to be drained and restocked after catfish got in it thru the feeder stream. I'll look into getting a sturgeon. It'd be a unique fish to have to say the least.

In replacing the liner, I got rid of all the crayfish, along with most of the leaches. I may re-introduce crayfish if I get the chance. I was also reading that freshwater mussels will settle on the bottom of a pond and provide filtering as well. The article suggested placing them in a large shallow sand filled container (like a brownie pan). They'd be too heavy to be sucked up by the pump, I think.

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, my koi ate the crayfish and the clams and mussels died. Most pond places no longer sell these critters as they turned out not to be successful in ponds. Although they eat small animals and algae, they still poop so don't think they eat poop, cuz they don't unless starving.

Snails will eat the lilies and other plants, poop like crazy and can carry parasites, most koi keepers prefer to keep them out of the pond.

[Dayleen]

Like Terri already said....there is nothing that takes the place of good filtration...period!!!! The more critters you add, the higher the waste level goes. There is nothing that will eat poop and mulm except a sludge buster like Pond Zyme, Microbe Lift and others. In a properly filtered pond, that bottom gunk doesn't exist because it's been filtered out.

Save your money and get yourself a properly sized filter. It's one of those things that you can resist but when you finally do it...you'll wonder why the heck you didn't do it sooner.

By the way, there's nothing better than a carp for bottom feeding (that's feeding on food not gunk)

[Cinnamon]

Dave if nothing else make you a good size filter. We did out of a 180 gallon fiberglass stock tank from the feed store. It was a heck of a lot cheaper than the Savio we had bought before that wasn't big enough! If you want to check it out here is the url to the complete pics of the construction.

http://photos.yahoo.com/pamth@sbcglobal.net

Click on the DIY filter :)

As they all say a good filter is all you really need. When we hooked our filter up it wasn't a week until the water was crystal clear and it still is! We have cleaned it once as it was full of fly larvae and their worms. You shouldn't have to clean this one but once every 6 months. Now that is what I liked about the idea :)

Any questions email me :)

[Dave in Innisfil]

My two-tier ponds combined volume is somewhere around 10,000 gallons. Right now the fish load is minimal, but by this time next year I'd like to have a half dozen foot-long koi and a smattering of comets, shubs and assorted goldfish. I'm feeding the fish considerably less, and use a feeding ring so most of the floating food is consumed before it becomes debris. Extensive tree pruning and removal has reduced the amount of floating debris, and I'm much more dilligent now about trimming dead leaves and skimming floating debris. I don't vacuum the pond or brush the sides, and try and limit pond disturbance (me and my swimming trunks)to once a week if necessary. The top top pond now has about 75% of the surface covered in plants, considerably less (maybe 10%) of the main lower pond. The lower pond plants are more marginals and reeds this year as I used some of the lily pots in the top pond. This year I bought almost double the floating plants in different variety, but mostly water lettuce , hyacinth and parrot feather.

Visibility now is fairly good, but the sides and bottom are covered with a soft brown fuzz. All water tests, excluding pH are 0, and I add about 1000 gallons from my well every other day to replace leak loss and evaporation.

I'd agree, filtration would be nice. Unfortunately, even a DIY two-barrel filter would add another high volume pump to our set up, digging up the flagstone, running an external bottom drain (yeah, Ian.....while I had the chance, I know I shoulda.....LOL) and lay two runs of piping to the fish house (can't call it a barn, no horses). Comes winter, all of this would need to be either dismantled and drained to avoid freezing and bursting. I've got enough fall projects to do, and never enough time to do them as is. I'm really really trying to avoid having to build/buy a filter. The top pond is suppose to act as a bog /natural filter, I thought.

I know my ponds are almost a closed ecosystem, but I do add considerable fresh water at regular intervals. We think our water was visibly clearer last year, considering I had over 100 fish of all sizes and fewer plants. Any idea's why ?

And seriously, where does one acquire a sturgeon ?

[Jackie Ramo]

There are specific plants that do best for bog filters, lilies are not one of them. Iris and other reeds like cattails make excellent bog filters. The water flows through their roots and the roots grab out the nutriants. Lilies being in pots don't filter but do use some of the nutriants.

You could put a bypass in for the pump you have and install a diy filter. I think with being on the well water and the amounts of water change out you can do makes your system work for now.

no idea about sturgeons.

[Terri]

Dave if you keep your stocking level low you won't need a "filter". Bog filters work quite well but on a different level than man-made filtering - and with high stocking rates they have to be huge to be effective. At minimum you will have to clean out the top pond once a year or it will become aneribic(sp?) and pockets of poisonous gas will build, not a good thing for your fish(or plants).

There is no "almost" about it, your pond IS a closed system as it has no natural water source feeding it or taking away from it. Keep doing what you are doing with top up's but do not consider this to be a water change, water change outs are important for the health of the water/fish. With top ups you just dilute what is left over from evaporation, with a water change your remove some of the build up of DOC's etc., and replace with fresh water.

Try some of the specialty aquarium shops for stergeon, they tend to sell the smaller varieties(under 3ft at adult). I know Big Al's has some way back, little 5"er's.

Crystal Clear water does not mean "healthy" water, but I think last year you had quite a diverse micro population happening along with all those plants. But look real close at your water, it may look like gin but particulate suspended in the water column is there.

[Dave in Innisfil]

The previous owner had suggested that I use fish line to keep the top pond floating plants from going over the waterfalls. Now, with a rock waterfall extending into the top pond, the roots stop the plants short of going over. I took away the fishline, let the plants gather at the spillover, and two days later, I've got considerably noticeably cleaner water. So much so that I now can see those damn folds in the liner and the hard-piping to the pump.....LOL. Tina thinks that with the extensive rain and heat lately that it's just seasonal cloudiness. My pH level is rising, and I'm not sure how to adjust it other than my regular dillutions. We do notice there isn't a fraction of the algae growth we had last year, and I'm wondering whether I need to re-seed the pond with more beneficial bacteria. I'm planning another big water changeout soon, so I guess after that would be a good time (if recommended)

Yes, last year the previous owner did have a more diverse plant arrangement, and it's a learning process on what does best where. Next year, not so many lilies in the top pond, more iris and reeds, and I'll probably start my floating plants earlier. My salting of the ponds didn't seem to do much good for the floating plants, as many developed yellow leaves and the bulbs on many water hyacynths went black. It did clean up some of the remaining goldfish, and I'm not having to cull sickly looking ones as frequent.

Two more water features added to our yard this week. We bought one of those 800 gallon inflatable pools (yeah, even though we're only 200 yards from our private beach on Lake Simcoe) and one of those plastic kiddie pools for the dogs (which can double as a QT in emergencies, my logic says). It's funny to watch my dogs watch the fish feeding, but I'd rather they drink from their pool than my pond.

That feeding ring someone suggested is quite entertaining, that is unless Roy the Koi decides to sample the smaller pellets and splashes around the ring. He's developing quite the appetite, and is rather violent about getting his share of any food put into the pond. It's neat at dusk to watch him cruise the pond like a shark
Tomorrow Tina, the pups and I are to visit a pond expert near Elora. They have a snapping turtle epidemic in their koi pond, and I'm exchanging my labour and skill in their removal in exchange for some 2 year old koi. So if next week my typing skills aren't what they used to be, I could be missing a finger or two..... :lol:

And thanks, Terri, I'll try Big Al's. I don't think a 3 foot sturgeon (I've seen them bigger) would be quite the conversation piece I had in mind.....

[Jackie Ramo]

Most people would be happy with clear water :) The algae will find you soon enough enjoy it while it lasts.

Yes the roots of the floaters do make great filters. Keep and eye onl the flow as they can block it.

Don't play with the pH, just let it go with the water changes.

Post your numbers, maybe the kh or buffer is low. Although that usually means the pH drops...

[Dave in Innisfil]

Most of my tests come back "0", excluding the pH which is off my scale. This morning the water's so clear I can almost read the SN on the pump (down almost 5 feet). Yesterday's visit to the pond "expert" was another learning experience, and he (like others) suggested I test the well water for pH before it goes into the pond. His solution was peat pellets and barley straw, which I've already explored and found ineffective in our pond.

Another "yea" vote for me installing some kind of filter before getting into more fish. He even loaned a pool pump, piping and filter material to get me started, but suggested a better solution utilizing my existing pump and piping if I can get some kind of large container that could reside in the top pond and not be too much of an eyesore. Something about 4 foot in diameter, about three feet high, and non-corrodable. Like a big fat short plastic round 110 gallon barrel...LOL. Didn't see those at Home Depot lately....LOL

And those weren't two year old koi he offered in exchange, they were TWO FOOT LONG koi. Seems a few years back someone donated some sick koi, which he nursed back to health and added to his farm pond, and he basically just left to their own to "sink or swim". And swim (and other things) they most certainly did. Now he's got about a 1/3 acre, 12' deep pond full of all sizes of butterfly koi and no good way to remove them. Catching two large snappers was no problem, but relocation vs termination was desired and I wasn't equipped to transport the turtles any distance (3 dogs in the Explorer already). So the turtles will wait until he finds a place close by we can move them to. The fish suffer from heavy predation, and won't come within net distance of shore, and couldn't be enticed near my dingy with food or calm.
So, those closest we came to bringing fish home was the lobster tails and shrimp on the evening BBQ. His resale stock of imported koi was outta my price range, and I'll wait until I can trade services for a few of his pond mutts.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well Dave it sounds like you have made an excellent connection. 3 wet dogs on the way back... hope your nose doesn't work good :lol:

Stock tanks at feed stores are what you are looking for. Easier for you to find than me in th city!! Plastic is better than metal but metal is better than nothing.

Always test the source water. How can your kh be 0??? If the fish are swimming around and happy don't mess with the pH but it is good to know what you are putting in.

[Tom C]

Are you talking this kind of catfish?

http://www.tricks4u.com/images/OPTICAL/OTHERS/fish%20cat.jpg

[Busy B]

Good one Tom :smile:

[Terri]

!rofl I like it... not too many of those around, rare find that :grin:

[Tom C]

I would say no to a plec's in the pond for a few reason. Plec's have been known to do a lot of damage to fish. Plec's also don't do well in cold water. Most of the time they will die in the winter if left in the pond. Plec's are also very dirty fish. Go to a pet store and see all the waste from the plec's in the tanks.

Catfish, I have seen some very large catfish in ponds. If your planning on adding one, add a small one. This sometimes helps to keep them from eating your koi as they get bigger. Catfish are also on the dirty side, don't think a catfish or any fish will eat fish waste. The down side to catfish in the pond they eat a lot. My friends is about 4' long and it eats most of the koi food when you put it into the pond. The 4' catfish was about 3" went it was added to the pond about 5 years ago. In the five years I'm guessing it took in about 400 lb of koi food. Catfish can and will eat a lot. The nice thing about this koi eating all the koi food is, I sell him the koi food. :lol:

Here's one just to give you a idea how large they can get.

http://www.feldenzer.com/large%20catfish.jpg

Here's another with a basketball in it's mouth. This will show you how large of a koi it could eat.

http://www.boingboing.net/images/Picture%201-12.jpg

Tom

[Jackie Ramo]

Tom, I've missed your sense of fun!!!

[Dave in Innisfil]

For all your excellant reasons, my main pond will remain catfishless, and feeder goldfishless before I start repopulating with your versions of "real pond fish". Geeeee....how's a guy to be unique around here ?..... LOL Now too bad I couldn't make it coonless, heronless, minkless, ravenless and more frequently Daveless.

Seeing all those 24-inch koi was awesome, but over the course of the afternoon they consumed a $50 bag of feed. I'll need a second job after my first job just to keep up with the feed bill if I get many of those.

I'm still investigating a source for sturgeon. Something about needing a special permit for them ? Scared I'll grow my own caviar, I guess. No new fish in the pond until I can get the skimmer back in, and maybe some kind of filter. I'm thinking it is the endless supply of pine needles falling in the pond that's throwing my pH level way out. Without the skimmer, they float briefly and sink to the bottom. Did a 25 % change-out on the water today in order to re-locate some of the lilies to the bottom of the pond. Hope it helps.

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, no one has ever said it was a cheap hobby!! BTW goldfish in many forms make great pond fish, Pretty, friendly and easy to care for. Koi OTOH can grow very large and eat up and poop out all that expensive food :smile:

Some of the fancy goldfish do not make good pond fish as they are too easily swooped up by preditors.

[Dave in Innisfil]

The root of my desire is to have something that will stir up the stuff that accumulates at the bottom of the pond so the pump can pick it up and move it to the top bog. I was told plecs won't survive our cold winter, and should be bought in the spring and replaced annually. Bad enough I have to do that with my plants, let alone fish. Our snails have evidentally been busy, and we have a growing population. The zillions of toadpoles have now grown legs and left the pond. In training the fish to feed from a ring, they're now spending more time on the surface than in the pond's depths where I need them.

Commercial fish suppliers are prohibited here from selling sturgeon, I learned. Reputedly, there is a First Nations fish supplier out there who still sells them, but I have been unable to locate. One of our pond reliners thought he had the connection, but brought us a beautiful 6" Japanese silver-blue koi which looks remarkably similar to a baby sturgeon when he too struck out. Our new koi has been named "Bubbles" after the Trailer Park Boys character with the bulging eyes. Yipee.... Now we're a two koi family. Our shubs and other pond fish are growing rapidly, and predation/unknown causes has significantly reduced our feeder goldfish popluation.

My next idea is a floating windmill moving an underwater blade limited to the deep centre trough. It will be a next-year project as I moved on Jackie's recommendation three large lily pots from the bog to the centre trough of the main pond. Untangling lily stalks is becoming a pet peeve around here, and I'm hoping that by the end of this season I'll have my plants all in desireable locations ready for next year. Since we have added two other water features to our backyard, a plastic doggie pool and a 800 gallon inflatable pool, I'm also considering some kind of pool vacuum. Today, our visability is about 3 feet down, but will remain cloudy for a few days after I do my weekly side brushing. I know I'm just moving the debris outta sight, but not outta my mind. The water in the bog is crystal clear right to the bottom. Figures.....LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave a small pump placed in the bottom of the pond should move the debris for you. I use a 250 gph one for the inside pond to give the fish a bit of current and to move the debris to the filter. Does a great job. And it doesn't add to the pond load.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Dave a small pump placed in the bottom of the pond should move the debris for you. I use a 250 gph one for the inside pond to give the fish a bit of current and to move the debris to the filter. Does a great job. And it doesn't add to the pond load.

And I swore last week was the last time this summer I was going swimming in our main pond. I've got one of those fountain pumps doing nothing right now which I could use, thanks for the idea. I picked up 30' of 3/8 air line this weekend I was considering splitting off the air pump, putting holes into and weaving among the lily pots now occupying the deep centre trough. Your idea is much less work, provided I want to drain out another 5,000 gallons to make acceptable access to the trough. In this heat, playing in even leech infested water is a cooling thought.

[Jackie Ramo]

I do wish you'd stop referring to leeches, gives me the willies!!!

!bonk

[Dave in Innisfil]

They're not anywhere near as big this year as they were last year. I guess I cleaned most of them out with replacing the liner in the bottom pond, but the plant pots no doubt contained them too. Any flora I acquire locally is rinsed extremely well, and quaranteened in fresh water for a day before I pot it. As a smoker, a quick touch of a butt and the leech falls off. I figure they add to the food chain inside the pond, and they're a type of leech I can live with. Some kinds of leeches just bite harder when you apply heat, those you need to use salt on. They're round, about the size of a loonie. The one's I've got are brown, up to an inch long, and need considerable time to attach.

Do you mean that not everyone has leeches in their ponds ?

Hope you had your breckie before you read this.

:lol:

[Jackie Ramo]

I have a scar on the back of my leg from a leech attaching itself to me as a child... they tried burning it and salting it, finally pulled it off. I think the teeth are still in there.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Some of the devils just hang on despite salt or heat. Those that actually break the skin enough to draw blood send me running for the alcohol. The thought of them potentially laying eggs gives me the creeps.

I make it a practice not to linger while in my ponds, and usually the only attachments I get are inside my water shoes. The fish in the pond "kiss" my legs while I'm in there, and I like to think they're removing leeches.

[Jackie Ramo]

And to think htey used to be used for medicine, to bleed the patient!!!

Actually they are once again using maggots to clean wounds.... sorry about the breakfast :uhoh:

[Dave in Innisfil]

Got a leech bite between two of my toes that's soooooooooooo aggrevating and itchy.....

[Jackie Ramo]

Yeeeewwwww!!! :-?