Snowplough Worries

[Merlin]

Hi all

As you may be aware I have had some concern over snowplough for a while now, despite the vet diagnosing that he was a she , (and a pregnant she at that ) he said she was in good health. I have had a hectic weekend as we have had visitors both yesterday and today, so have not had time to do my checks.

At around 8pm this evening a friend and I were siting on the wall around the pond when I happen to notice snowplough by the side of us , at first I thought "hey your getting brave" but on closer inspection I noticed she was on her side and seemed to be gasping ( there is a ledge 6" down that runs round the front of the pond, originally built there for plants, but I made it too sloped) She was lying on that, I went to net her and she was off like a shot.

I got my test kits out as obviously something was wrong, and as we all know the first thing to check is the water.

PH 7,8
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0.5
Nitrate 75 mg/l !wow!

I have been trying them on some new food ( they Like it ) but I have never had a Nitrate level that high before . The outside temp today is in the 90's the pond temp is 21c.
I am now in the process of doing a 40% water change to try and bring the nitrate level down, ( I wish my tap pumped water back in to the pond as quick as I can pump it out :() . I have managed to net Snowplough, at first glance she looks OK, I managed to get a look at her gills ( she did not like that ) they are as they should be, then I noticed her eye's . now if I am not mistaken they seem to be sunken, normally the yellow flash above the eye's is prominent and easerly seen.

I have added a before and after photo what do you think.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/Chateauwizard/Closeup.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/Chateauwizard/000329045456.jpg

[Merlin]

Normally if you look down from the top at her, the yellow over the eye's is well visible, yet in the second photo it is not there . :cry: . During The day she has been quite lively in the pond, up for food and swimming normally, before I netted her swimming was normal as well ???. The pond is still filling at the moment 11PM, so it is a little cooler out there ( by the way this has been the hottest day in the UK for this time of year 93 deg ) not sure if that has anything to do with it, rest of fish all OK.

Will check on Nitrate level in an hour or so .

[Jackie Ramo]

Merlin, the eyes do look different. yet the body looks good, skin looks clear etc.

I do have a fish that likes to sun himself in the reeds... Alice, eats well and swims stongly but does seem to spend more time in the sunshine reeds than the rest of the fish. In spring I could think he was warming up but now I really don't know. Yes, I know Alice is a boy's name but his counter part Cooper has decided that she will keep the male portion of the name in true metal fashion.

I'm sure you dont wish to hear the tumour word but instead of pregnant perhaps Snowplough has other issues that would not show up on an external exam...

BTW 75 nitrAtes is really nothing to get excited about... over 200 and maybe there are long term issues. All it means is the plants will grow, it won't harm the fish.

[Terri]

Merlin I would not worry to much about the nitrAtes but you do have a 0.5 reading for nitrIte, that is a concern... even with your 7.8ph reading. Test again after your water change for the nitrIte, if you get a reading other than "0" then add salt to 0.1%.

Yes Snowploughs eyes do look sunken in. Are you able to do a scrape and scope? To me she looks discoloured, yellowish hue about her(unless that is normal for her). Did you get a look at her vent? Any inflamation? Redness?

[Merlin]

Thanks Jackie

You know I have become a little bit of a worrier since losing Lucky and as you know Snowplough has become one of my favorites. When I saw her on her side I think my heart missed a few beats. The vet assured me she was in good health and pregnant ( not seen any fry in the pond yet) . As to the high Nitrate level, on the back of my test kit I have just read the words " levels over 75mg/l will encourage unsightly and potentially dangerous algae, which will effect the growth of your pond plants. " :-x Not a word that it was dangerous to your fish. OK valuable lesson that I need to read more, once again I panicked.

Now I should be tucked up in bed as it is now 16 minutes past midnight, but I am going to check on that damm fish a couple more times before I retire , just to make sure she is ok. Who ever said keeping a pond was easy needs to read a few more books . :frisbee:

[Merlin]

Sorry Terri you posted at the same time I posted .

Due to the late hour and the fact I lent my scope to a friend just yesterday :( no to that question, as to her colour it might have been the camera as she is pure white . I netted her and did a quick check on her gills , they are pristine exactley what I would expect to see on a healthy Koi. Not a single blemmish on her skin, no raised scales nothing. as the time is now 00.42 and I have a 5am start tomorrow I am going to have to call it a night. I checked the pond 5 mins ago, and no sign of her. Will get my scope back tomorrow and run the normal checks .

[Terri]

No worries Merlin. I do hope you can get to the bottom of her sunken eyes, this doesn't happen for no reason.

[Jackie Ramo]

Terri, what parasite causes sunken eyes?

[Merlin]

Things are not good , just got in from work Snowplough is on the bottom of the pond on her side , now that I have good light I can see her tail fin is covered in red streaks. She is listless and can hardly make an effort to swim. I have put her in the qt and salted while I check what to do next.

[Terri]

Call me crazy but seeing as I've been dealing with this bloody nasty myself recently I'm going to say costia... Merlin you really need to scrape and scope Snowplough to determine if costia is the case. Take a scrape from the top of the head, from glii plate down the lateral line, and from the vent area.

Merlin you have a pm

Jackie almost every koi we've had with costia starts off with being listless although they will eat just not as vigorously, clamped fins(with red streaking/body viening) and next shows beginning of sunken eyes. Mind ammonia poisoning and nitrite poisoning will do this too. Costia - after the noticable sign of sunken eyes you will begin to see raised scales and milky patches around those scales(which is the costia in droves eating away at the slime coat).

[Merlin]

Thanks terri , I can not do a scrape at present ( brother borrowed my scope, and I am having problems trying to get hold of him)

I have just checked on her, No raised scales or milky patches and good slime coat. but she sure is listless, it is a struggle for her to move.

I have purchased some Formaldehyde on the way home, is this the correct stuff to use, Treats white spot/ Trichodina /Costia and Flukes.

I could not see the streaks last night as I have coloured spotlights over the pond, now in daylight they stand out like a sore thumb. I have had to take her out of the qt as she just rolls over on her side. I have put her into a 50 gallon container with the help of a weighted container by her side to keep her upright, allso added two air stones.

[Terri]

Merlin, pay close attention to any red areas(any streaking/viening in the body which looks like pooled bleeding under the skin), check her belly.... besides bugs she may have a bacterial infection... :( I know you've had the vet check her, hopefully she's full of egg and not infection. Are you sure her gills had that rare steak red colour? No areas of soft pink? brown? No excess mucus? Inside her mouth.. redness?

Formalin is a form of Formaldehyde - does the package have directions for dosage? What's the strength? I'm sorry if it were me I wouldn't go there, at this point it might push her over the edge(damned if you damned if you don't type of situation).... but it's your call, you're there and have a better handle on what is happening. This shotgun as a bath should nuke any bugs, would need to be held over 1 hr - 1 1/2hrs (NO salt above 0.1%) - if she has no open sores all the better. Heavy aeration while treating. Look into follow up with an antibiotic injects from your vet - hopefully this isn't needed.

Did you end up testing again for nitrIte in the pond?

Wish I were more help....

[Merlin]

Hi Terri the formaldehyde is 30% 10ml per 150uk gallons. I am holding back on it at the moment, just seeing if the salt and extra oxygen will lift her spirits. Gills were steak red yesterday when I checked her, but as mentioned it was verry late and I only had the pond lights to see by. She is back on her side again, but when disturbed swims for a bit and then sinks back down again, so not looking too good at the moment. When the vet checked her last week there was no problem with her eyes and no sign of any redness.

I am going to check the pond water again this evening, but at present I am keeping an eye on snowplough.

[Jackie Ramo]

Thanks Terri, I think of costia as being a fast killer with fish going in 24-48 hours hardly time to get shrunken eyes or much else. Having only experienced it once though I am sure you have a better handle on it than me.

Merlin, if it were me, I'd go for the treatment before she gets worse. I know it is a chance but there is a chance that waiting too long will make it worse and she is already weakening rapidly.

Have a good bucket of water and scoop her out if she is too stressed.

[Terri]

Just a quick note... sometimes the things you know get lost in the shuffle of brain cells(or does this just happen to me???)

Fluke in a heavy infestation will also cause sunken eyes, and by that point there is most likely a secondary bacterial infection happening too. But with fluke you should see visiable damage to the gills(skin or gill fluke doesn't matter) if it's far gone, and then there's the typical beginning symptoms of flashing, coughing, darting, fin twitching... leading to lethargy and streaking/viening... etc.

I still think it would be wise to scrape and scope before treating... I don't have much faith in Formalin/Formeldehyde on it's own kickin' fluke back.

Always a puzzle with a piece that doesn't want to fit right... *sigh*

[Jackie Ramo]

yeah that missing piece of the puzzle is always the kicker, bad enough when you have the fish in hand much harder relying on descriptions and pictures.

[Merlin]

Sadly it was taken out of my hands. http://www.koiphen.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif I stayed up till Midnight watching her doing what ever I could to keep her upright, she would swim for a bit but the moment she stopped swimming she keeled over and sank to the bottom again. She just lay there gasping, hardly any gill movement at all. I pumped the salt up to 0.6 and added two more air stones from my spare oxygen pump, but nothing seemed to help. I held back on the fomaldehyde as I did not feel she had the strengh to stand it)

I had to be at work for 5am, so I was up at 4, when I checked on her she had gone. http://www.koiphen.com/forums/images/smilies/frown.gif My brother has now dropped my scope back, had his mobile switched off for some reason http://www.koiphen.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif so I do not even know for sure what killed her. ( after Lucky I could not go through another autopsy so buried her in the garden.

Ok guys what is my next step , should I treat the pond for possible costia, ( will have my scope back tomorrow, although the rest of the fish look ok I will scrape a few and check for any bugs). Nitrate and Nitrite are now back to zero. The weather in the UK has gone from rain all last week, then the sun came out over the weekend and outside temp shot up to the 90's ( this is realy strange for the UK) so I am not sure if that had a factor in all of this.

[Jackie Ramo]

I'm sorry to hear that Snowplough didn't make it Merlin. Why is it always our favourites that have these problems... the ugly mean one in the corner will live forever...

I'd just scrape and scope and see if there is anything there. I'm still on the tumour footing as none of the others showed symtoms.

[Terri]

:( I'm so sorry Merlin

I agree with Jackie on the scrape and scope before going ahead and treating the pond. I hope you don't find a thing to have to worry about. If Snowplough did have costia(or other bug) she was most likely the only one infested seeing as the other's are going about business as usual... and she was removed from the pond before she died. Still, it's good practice to be thorough... investigate the other's and take the appropriate route given the out come of the scope.

Costia is a funny bug... it's kinda fish specific - unless introduced via amphiban or a fish who dies(dying) in the pond of costia(having said that all fish have "bugs" in very low numbers).

[Merlin]

Ok water tests of an hour ago .

Nitrate 0.mg/l
Nitrite 0.mg/l
Amonia 0.1 mg/l :mad:
Nh2/NH4 0.mg/l ( I understand this to be a second amonia test , but is showing up at 0.mg/l ???)
Ph 7.8 to 8.5 ( somewhere in the middle)
Salt 0.04%. ( too low ??) Test kit says to add 1 cup (291g) per 100 gallons to bring salt up to 0.1%)

6 of the larger Koi scraped and scoped all clear ( magnified at 400)

Just seen one of the ghosts do a high flyer out of the pond !wow!, I think they do that just to stress me out :frisbee:.

Gonna give the first compartment of the filter a wash through ( brushes) and re-test my parameters first thing tomorrow morning.

Any advice on the above findings ??

Merlin

[Jackie Ramo]

Other than I hate seeing 0 nitrAtes on tests the water looks fine.

Fish do jump and scratch for the joy of it from time to time. Mine were scratching yesterday because I forgot the water was on... no long enough to do damage but enough to irritate old Tweet.

[Merlin]

]Other than I hate seeing 0 nitrAtes on tests the water looks fine. [/color]

Fish do jump and scratch for the joy of it from time to time. Mine were scratching yesterday because I forgot the water was on... no long enough to do damage but enough to irritate old Tweet..

Jackie please explain :unsure: .

[marla]

So sorry about your loss. I can't imagaine looseing a fish that has been with me for a long time. Hope you get things normalized, and find another fish to fill the void.

[Jackie Ramo]

Merlin the cycle is ammonia produces nitrItes and nitrItes produce NitrAtes, if there are no nitrates to me the cycle is suspect. Clear as mud now??? :lol:

[Busy B]

Sorry Merlin...I know you tried everything you could..

[Merlin]

Merlin the cycle is ammonia produces nitrItes and nitrItes produce NitrAtes, if there are no nitrates to me the cycle is suspect. Clear as mud now??? :lol:
!rofl No but I am working on it . So let me get this straight

Amonia in the pond is a bad thing but produce Nitrites.
Nitrites in the pond is a bad thing but produces Nitrates
Nitrates are ok providing they are kept low .

Yep clear as Mud now :-?

[Jackie Ramo]

Nitrates are what feed the plants so they are not necessarily a bad thing unless they get quite high for a long period of time.

So if I see a 0 nitrate reading it makes me wonder if the pond has truly cycled or not. My nitrates are always 12.5 which is the lowest reading on my test kit and that is in a heavily planted pond taking up the nitrates.

Test your source water for nitrates.

[Merlin]

Ok Jackie :-) I must admit to never actual testing the water from the tap :frisbee:.
Will do it today when I do my pond check as I have a day off, ( got to take Tracey to the hospital, further tests after the Kidney stone problem she had).

[Jackie Ramo]

Hope Tracey is well. Kidney stones are nasty. Hubby had one a few years ago and I think he thought he'd die!! or maybe just wished it :lol:

Testing the source water is very important. How do you know if you are helping the fish with a water change if you don't know what is going into the pond. Although I don't test my tap water weekly I do test from time to time as they change the chlorine and chlorimaine mix expecially in hot summers, like we are having now.