concerned :-( [Archive] - Koi Reflections Forums

Dewi

05-30-2005, 06:24 AM

My fish are eating very reluctantly, also are lethargic, this started yesterday evening. This AM are not moving hardly at all, this has given me cause for concern. Could it be a parasite?? I don't have the facilities to scrape and look for my self, but could I give them something, perhaps introduce it to the water?

Terri

05-30-2005, 09:42 AM

First steps first Dewi... did you test the water(pH, KH, amm, nI)? If yes what were the readings?
When was your last % water change? Did you use De-chlor? Do you hav salt in the pond at this time?
Any other signs besides lethargy? Flashing, gasping, rapid gill movement, fin flicking, milky slime coat(in patches), "coughing"(looks like they are spitting out food), leaping out of the water?
Where are they sitting? Bottom of pond or near water returns? Do you have an extra air stone and air pump to add to the pond?
Is it possible that some contaminate got into the pond(weed killer, etc)?
Is it possible that you've had a preditory animal visit and they are just spooked?
Can you remember anything before yesterday that may have led up to this present inactivity?

There are very few "bugs" or bacteria that can effect fish so quickly - especially healthy fish. Chilodonella and Costia are two off the top of my head as they reproduce rapidly - but usually come in conjuction with something else. Everything else takes a bit of time and generally there are symptoms noticed. Chemical poisons can do quite a bit of damage dependant on the concentration(chlorine/chlorimine, pesticides, etc.). Insufficant O2 will cause lethargy and loss of appetite.

With out knowing what you are dealing with you might want to hold off throwing any quick fixes into the pond - it could help or just make things worse if it's the wrong treatment.

Koi Cymru ( http://www.koicymru.co.uk/ ) I believe is in Wales... I can't get to their web site atm... they may likely have members in your area and one who might offer help to scrape and scope...?

Sorry, more questions than answers.

Jackie Ramo

05-30-2005, 10:10 AM

Good advice from Terri. First start with the water. In addition it is seldom a parasite that attacks all the fish at one time.

Dewi

05-30-2005, 11:02 AM

Thanks,I only noticed it last night as I have been working away from home. My wife although likes to look does not participate in the general upkeep of the fish, I was told that the hose attachment that feeds the waterfall came lose and the pond emptied about 70% of its water befor it was spotted.
It was refilled using tap water and no freshh start used, could this be the problem???
I would like to say that they are moving about normally now, but will still not eat, I have placed salt in the pond, Do you suggest I wait a little longer befor adding treatment to the water.?? Thanks again Dewi.

Dewi

05-30-2005, 11:07 AM

I've checked the water and its fine, they are not gasping, although My daughter tells me they have been flicking from time to time, they no lomger seem lethargic, I have now added fresh start and have made sure the UV is working.

Merlin

05-30-2005, 02:51 PM

Dewi one of the most important additions to the pond is fresh start when new water is added especialy when adding that amount of new water, how long is it between the pond emptying and the fresh start going in ?. Is it possible to check your water parameters PH / Nitrate etc and post the findings.

Flicking and flashing could be due to the water not having the declor added, but it could be a host of other reasons. Please get back to us asap on the condition of your fish now.

Terri

05-30-2005, 03:46 PM

..and the pond emptied about 70% of its water befor it was spotted.
It was refilled using tap water and no freshh start used, could this be the problem???
Merlin hit it, with out dechlor during/before the large accidnetal water change would cause the behaviour you noticed - as well a pretty good temperature shift with the new water. I am surprised that the fish were not noticed at the surface hanging near the water returns "gasping". Flicking/flashing and even breeching could also occur. Since it's been a few days the chlorine has basically gased off - the addition of your Fresh Start would take care of any chlorine left. There will still be a bit of burn to their gills and I would assume that their slime coats were effected. Don't expect them to be too hungry, hold off trying to feed for a few days - your filter took a hit too. Now it's a wait and see thing, hopefully they will all come out just fine but watch them over the next two weeks for other signs of distress - this would be an opertune time for parasites and the like to take advantage.

What level did you add salt to? I don't think any more than 0.1% would be needed at this point, this is enough to handle any little burp your filter might have and to stimulate slime coat production.

Add an extra air stone or two to get your water saturated with O2, this along with really good waterQ should keep them on the right track to staying healthy.

I'm sorry this happened Dewi.. atleast the crew is still hanging in :-)

Jackie Ramo

05-30-2005, 05:56 PM

Dewi, lucky all the fish didn't die. I've read on the boards where this has happened... a very sad tale indeed. Put a sign near the hose reminding any one that if filling the pond where the fresh start is kept.

Dewi

05-31-2005, 01:29 AM

I have To work today thus the early post, but am due a few days off, checked my water its ok, This AM fish are still looking a little worst for their experience.
I have two smaller fish 4"&6" these seem to be less affected I thought it would be the opposit,
Thank you all again, I will keep you all informed as the days go by, If there is nothing else I can do I will wait and hope.

Regards Dewi

Jackie Ramo

05-31-2005, 11:51 AM

Dewi, it would not hurt to add a bit of salt, just 0.1% to help them take up oxygen and to relieve their stress.

Dewi

05-31-2005, 01:29 PM

Thanks Jackie have allready done so, I have also used some Biofilter Booster,
They are still hanging in there, they are still somewhat Lethargic and I haven't tried them with food as was suggested, but they have lived in Wales for some years now so they might be a little tougher than the Average. :wink:

Jackie Ramo

05-31-2005, 06:10 PM

I am sure their gills are burned and will take a bit of time to heal up. That they survived at all is a sign of their toughness :grin:

Dewi

06-01-2005, 09:20 AM

Its raining today, don't know if I should do anymore other than wait, but the signs are good.

Jackie Ramo

06-01-2005, 10:27 AM

Hard to sit and wait I know. But what can be done has been done, warm water, a bit of salt, and lots of air and they should recover.

Dewi

06-01-2005, 11:19 AM

:) yeah I should be used to that, (waiting) I have a fish I need Identifying, Think I know what it is, but would like some reassurance, don't want to disturb them at the minute. but when they're back to nomral I will send Terri a pic.

Terri

06-01-2005, 12:14 PM

Oh goodie.. PICS! :grin:
I need some cheering up ..

Dewi

06-01-2005, 04:47 PM

Ohh no, your not sad too, :) nothing is ever as bad as it seems Huh?? :smile: Fishes are eating, or at least most of them :lol: this evening, just a small handfull, but its all gone, will increase it tomorrow. Will send you a pic of the fish. I thought it was a............... but then someone else said it's a............... guress you'll know :wink:

Terri

06-02-2005, 12:17 PM

Life goes on Dewi.. and today is a sunny warm day.

I'll post your photo's late, I have to go out the moment. I'll save my opinion til then.

:-)

Dewi

06-02-2005, 01:08 PM

Oh dear, sounds a little ominous, saving ones opinion till later :frisbee: :unsure: till later then. :-?

Dewi

06-05-2005, 03:25 AM

Have treated the pond with antie Parasite,lots of foaming this AM, will treat it again this afternoon, fish are still not themselves. :(

Dewi

06-05-2005, 04:48 AM

They are now on the bottom, with very little movement. :-( going to test the water.

Dewi

06-05-2005, 05:41 AM

PH.............8.2

NITRITE........0.1 mg/litre

Nitrate...............10 mg/litre

AMONIA...................... 0,4 mg/litre

Have read the test brochure and although these figures fall within the safety parameteres they seem to be a little high.
The last thing I wanted to do was change the water, but it seems I have no choice, I will remove 20% today 20% tomorrow then take another reading.
:(

Jackie Ramo

06-05-2005, 10:42 AM

What type of parasite treatment are you using. I've not heard of one that requires treatments so quickly together.

Dewi

06-05-2005, 11:08 AM

Its a 5 day course Jackie,the post is a little confusing, What I meant to say was that i'd treated the pond, then the next day there was some foaming. Have treated it again today and will for the next 3 days,what do you think of the pond testing amounts???

Merlin

06-05-2005, 03:54 PM

Ph 8.2 , mine is normally around 7.8- 8.1 so I would live with that.
Nitrate 10 is a little on the high side , mine is norm 0.2 -0.5.

I am more concerned about the reason that you are adding a course of anti parasite treatment :unsure: , do you have a problem with parasites ??. I believe in the saying , " if it ain't broke don't fix it ". I will only add treatment when I have a problem and I have identified what the problem is.

Dewi your fish are just getting over a major problem due to the lack of declor when your new water was added. They are going to be a little out of sorts for a while, adding more chemicals at this stage ( in my mind) is not a good idea.

We have all been there, the fish are not behaving as they should be so we look for something to chuck in the pond, that way we think we are doing something to help, bad idea :(. Give them what they need at this time , good water conditions and plenty of oxygen, leave the chemicals alone .

Please keep us informed of how they are doing .

Merlin

Jackie Ramo

06-05-2005, 04:17 PM

Merlin is right, too much kindness has killed a lot of fish..... What are you treating for, what is the medicine,

I'm not happy with the ammonia or nitrIte. Nitrate is just fine, mine is 12.5 all the time, and the pH is fine, mine is 9.

Dewi

06-05-2005, 06:23 PM

Thank you for your concern, I have found someone on the net living not far from me,who is a kind of fish doctor, am going to see him tomorrow.

I have had fish for 6 years, I have seem them with minor problems and coped.
My fish for the most part have been happy and healthy.
This is different, they are not acting the way they normally do, one minute they are lying on the bottom hardly moving, the next they are flicking flashing and rubing themselves against the sides swimming erratically and jumping right out the water. Now they have stopped eating completely.
I use very few chemicals on my fish as I don't believe in it, finding this place on the net might solve my problems at least he will tell me what it is and then be able to treat it.

Jackie Ramo

06-05-2005, 08:07 PM

Oft times fish that have under gone stress get ill with parasites. Your fish were extremely stressed with the water change without dechlor. Hopefully this person can scrape and scope the fish for you so that you can treat for the exact problem rather than guessing.

All symptoms you describe are parasites.

Terri

06-06-2005, 03:25 AM

Laying on their sides in not a good thing :(

Chlorine damage to the gills/skin + suspected parasites + a knocked down filter, it's a rough ride Dewi... experiencing my own disater at the moment so my heart goes out to you.

What is this 5 day treatment chemical? Formalin and malachite green mix? PP? Did you add extra circulation to the pond via air stones or water pump?

You will need to get a good look at the gills of a few fish, yup, net one or two up, sedate them and have a boo. Hopefully your new aquaintence can give you a hand... you're looking for white/yellow areas, slight brown colour or very pale pink, and a "gummy" appearance. Any of these will inhibit O2 transfer through the gills. If you can get your hands on a microscope do a scape and study the sample... 100x you will see the small nasties like costia, lower setting for fluke or ICH or Trich. Scrape from the gills down the lateral line and do the belly from gills to vent. If your kind of a fish doctor knows how to do a gill snip that would be a good idea too.

The chlorine poisoning is the root cause here, low levels of ammonia will add to the damage somewhat, dependant on the type of chem treatment... that can be good and bad at the same time. It's in the gills, not easy to heal under the best conditions...

Somedays just suck... :(

Dewi

06-06-2005, 10:21 AM

Went to see this fella this morning, took a fish with me, he scraped it along the gills and said there was no parasites, but did say as you all have, the water change has done the damage.

Reckons my filter has crashed and has caused the fish to act the way they are,
He has also said that I need to take two more of my fish down Wednesday for him to scrape, just incase the fish I took was not infected yet.

But he is almost certain that it is all to do with the accident I had,
He has checked the water and sez it's all OK, I have to take another water sample with me too.

He seems to know what he's about, has his own business and has some really good quality koi his shop is really well laid out too.

Didn't altogether agree with the salt tho %(

I signed up as a member £35 for the year for this.

He will scrape the koi and advise on treatment if need be.

Test the water, and advise.

Keep a fish if it is severely infected and treat.

Plus a 10% discount on all things. :grin:

Perhaps now I wont be so much of a problem to you's :lol:

I really do appreciate, all that you have all done to help

Regards Dewi

Everything is OK in the end, if it's not OK, its not the end. :wink:

Dewi

06-06-2005, 12:45 PM

By the way his address is www.koiwarehouse.com check it out some nice fish,

Terri

06-06-2005, 01:34 PM

I like your new friend already, he sells EA :grin: Sakai Hiroshima is a big producer, 1000's of this breeders koi are imported into North America yearly. That 50cm sanke on page two for 1600UKpound, nice Dewi, save your money up! LOL That one is a keeper. But ACK he sells sand filters, he deals in swimming pool supplies to I hope ;-) Good web site, well layed out.

Sounds like you have a good source for help there Dewi but don't you dare abandon us here... we like you too much!

Good luck with your koi, please let us know how things go.

Merlin

06-06-2005, 02:06 PM

Agree with Terri dont abandon us, you have not been a problem. We all make mistakes and by posting those problems here it helps others avoid making the same mistakes.

I like you am still wet under the collar ( those dam fish have a habit of doing that :lol: ) I am learning all the time but still have a long way to go.

Dewi

06-06-2005, 04:57 PM

I won't leave, :smile: Some nice fish he has (god I sound like yoda) he has a chagoi, must be 3' long biggest fish I have ever seen, beautiful,

I told him about them not eating, he suggested I try them with some brown bread. :) it worked all except one ate like there was no tomorrow, still flicjing but not as much, looked good this evening swiming about more. I think they're going to be OK :smile:

Every one has the ability to make others happy, some do it by entering a room, others by leaving. :lol:

Dewi

06-06-2005, 05:17 PM

By the way I have never bought a fish for more than £100, 50cm, someone else has raised him.
For me (I know not all) the enjoyment is watching them grow.

I know there are those that can look at a fish 2" long and see a supreme champion, I look at a fish 2" long and think can I keep it alive long enough to see it get older. !rofl. :-)

Jackie Ramo

06-06-2005, 05:42 PM

Glad you found some one local but you'd better not leave us!!!

I don't know of anyone who can look at a 2" fish and say it will be a champion but some can say it has potential to grow into champion material. Me, I say, cute fishie :lol:

Merlin

06-07-2005, 04:23 PM

Dewi

06-07-2005, 04:30 PM

Good friends can be awfully expensive it seems :) .

Dewi

06-07-2005, 04:34 PM

Where you from Merlin?? lions in taranaki tomorrow, or are you a football fan?? Did you know that Wales took the Grand Slam this year. :) :wink:

Dewi

06-08-2005, 12:40 PM

Well, took two more of my fish with me this morning (after the lions) :grin:
They are fine, no parasites.
What he was concerned about was my pond the waterproof coating called G4 is now starting to break down, therefor the concrete is leaching itno my pond.
He suggests I fibreglass it, as the cost would not be a great deal more than the G4,
He will lone me a tank to put all mty Koi in while I am carrying out these mods, I have wanted to extend my pond for some time, now it seems would be a good opportunity :lol: :lol:

Every thing works out in the end, if it hasn't, its not the end. ;-)

Jackie Ramo

06-08-2005, 05:50 PM

Oh good a construction thread. Nothing I like better than reading about other people working hard. Unless its sitting having a cold beverage while watching them work. :smile:

Dewi

06-12-2005, 08:14 AM

Fish are eating now, (all of them) still not 100% but a huge improvement, Away again wednesday, but this time there won't be any disasters, :-) Fish are still flicking a little but this is less each day. :grin:

Jackie Ramo

06-12-2005, 10:52 AM

Glad to know they are on the road to recovery. Now that they are eating they will get well quickly. Some fresh fruits and veggies for the extra vitamins.

Terri

06-12-2005, 02:36 PM

Good news Dewi :-)

Merlin

06-12-2005, 02:56 PM

Where you from Merlin?? lions in taranaki tomorrow, or are you a football fan?? Did you know that Wales took the Grand Slam this year. :) :wink:
Dewi dont you start ! I have enough info on how wales are doing in Rugby from two of my brothers who are adopted welshman :) . I live in Bershire, they live in a place called Oakdale, a couple of miles from Blackwood Gwent. We are English but they have been adopted by the residents of the village. :)

Merlin

06-12-2005, 03:02 PM

I have used G4 before and had the same problem, lasted about 5 years then I started to see it peeling off :-x . How long has the pond been installed ? . Fibreglass is the best way to go, but can work out very expensive. When I re built my pond I went for a liner over concrete.

Dewi

06-12-2005, 04:55 PM

Dewi dont you start ! I have enough info on how wales are doing in Rugby from two of my brothers who are adopted welshman :) . I live in Bershire, they live in a place called Oakdale, a couple of miles from Blackwood Gwent. We are English but they have been adopted by the residents of the village. :) well we've taken it for a while. Oakdale remember it well, still have the stud marks :lol:

Dewi

06-12-2005, 05:02 PM

Thank you ladies, fresh fruit you say, with a side salad. !wow! I remember putting the Orange in, had to take it out after three dasy and eat it myself :roll: didn't eat it all, wife seen me and complained I was eating the last orange again, So I had tio share. !dude

Dewi

06-13-2005, 12:39 PM

I did a water change this morning adding dechlo, this seemed to irritate the fish, They started flicking more than they have been this last few days, this has obviously irritated them in some way. Am I right in thinking you only have to dechlor what you Put back not the whole pond????

Jackie Ramo

06-13-2005, 12:41 PM

Since they are very sensitive I'd have dose the entire pond amount. If they don't settle down in an hour that is what I'd do now.

Dewi

06-13-2005, 12:47 PM

They are much better Jackie, it was after the water change 5-10% then the dechlor that they started flicking much worst than they have been of late. Am I right in thinking you only have to dechlor what you put in, in normal circumstances??

Jackie Ramo

06-14-2005, 10:04 AM

Yes, normally that is what you would do, or more correctly what I do. For the next change add the dechlor first and see if it makes a difference. It may be that the new water has a different pH.

Dewi

06-16-2005, 05:11 PM

Been away for a few days,yes I will try that, they are still eating but are flickinf a little still. :(

It was a woman who introduced me to drink and I never had the courtesy to thank here. W,C, Fields :-)

Merlin

06-27-2005, 12:31 PM

Hows the fish doing Dewi ??

Dewi

06-27-2005, 01:45 PM

Fish are diong fine Merlin, still flick occasionally, but they were only saying this fine morning tyhat they are much better.

They are now a joy to behold and I am now H.A.P.P.Y :grin:

Merlin

06-27-2005, 02:00 PM

Fish are diong fine Merlin, still flick occasionally, but they were only saying this fine morning tyhat they are much better.

They are now a joy to behold and I am now H.A.P.P.Y :grin:

Dewi have you been out in the sun to long :frisbee: Talking fish indeed :-P

We all know it takes at least a couple of years before they answer you back .!rofl