Installing new liner

[Dave in Innisfil]

OK, this weekend is it. I've acquired the liner, and lined up some manpower (no slight to the fairer sex intended), and the forecast for the weekend is good. The liner size is 30' X 30', deepest part is now 4', 6" and we're planning on putting the new liner over the old one. Sorry Ian, but no bottom drain this time. I'm duct-taping most of the tears in the old liner, and removing as much of the dirt and stones as I can, the problem being the pond is below the water table and water rushes in almost as fast as I can pump it out. I'm planning on putting additional geo between the old and new liner in the bottom because there's no way I can get every stone and pebble out. When the pond is out of water, now the frost is out of the ground I'm starting to get small cave ins behind the old liner. The pump and piping has been removed, as are all the flagstones. The waterfalls are too heavy for me alone, and I'm waiting until I get some help.

Eugene cautioned me to watch for mice and voles between the liners, a suggestion I never thought of. I'm sure you all have little tidbits based on personal experience.

Any advice or direction at this point will be greatly appreciated.

[Terri]

30'x30' is heavy, atleast a 2 person job. I never would have thought about critter holes either, Eugene never ceases to surprise me LOL Where are the cave ins happening? There is not a real science to installing a liner, you have pretty much done what is needed, might have to build up and well pack a few areas where the ground is giving way. We've found it is easier to have the liner folded in half, drag it into the hole to get it in the best position and then unfold it. WE work fromt he bottom up, trying our best to smooth our the liner and get the folds as neat as possible. Once you start adding water it gets hard to smooth out any creases... the folds need to be worked as the water level rises (if you're using liner tape for folds then you're outta luck if you goofed :grin: )

Have fun.. take pictures... you know we wanna see what happened ;-)

[Dave in Innisfil]

Goofed ?.....I'm having a hard time recollecting anything I've done RIGHT when it comes to this big empty hole in our yard....LOL. I figure four middle-aged men should be able to handle the size, with union beer breaks every two hours....LOL

Good idea on liner taping the folds. I've also read that spreading the liner out to warm in the sun before installation makes it easier. Current dilemna is that the two pre-formed waterfalls are integrated into the top pond, and I'm going to have to remove them to tuck the new liner underneath. Some head scratching going on here on how I'm going to accomplish this, since both waterfalls will need to be dead-level to have even overflow. I'm hoping brute strength to lift them up enough to slide the liner underneath, and I'll worry about levelling later.

Tina's rules. No parties (except liner party) until all the flagstone is back down.

Dave's reality. No flagstone back down til external piping, electrical and edging is done. Electrical piping and fresh water lines semi-done already. Still working on filter and skimmer concept, so can't pipe. Bottom drain, skimmer, main pump, water and air lines will be external of the liner for now. No edging until pond full of water. No full pond until all the plants are back in, no fish until all the plants are back in, no nothing until the liner is in.....

Can/can't hardly wait for Saturday. My luck it'll rain.......

[Jackie Ramo]

Just remember, this is supposed to be a relaxing hobby!!

How is the water level now in the pond? Has it lowered at all?

[Dave in Innisfil]

The water table is slowly going down, maybe 3 inches per week. At this rate, it would be the end of summer before I would have a dry centre/deep spot in our lower pond. We're hoping we can pump down to the bottom, cover the unremovable pebbles and sludge with another sheet of geo over the existing PVC liner, put down the new liner over the bottom, place our temporary forming form, add our dumb bell weights to anchor the bottom and fill with water, in less time than it takes for the bottom to re-fill, and then carefully remove the pump from between the two liners. It's going to be tricky, but our only alternative would be to sink a drum deeper than the centre, and then put a false floor on the bottom of the pond. We'll save that until I have the courage to attempt the bottom drain thru the liner.....LOL

Pumps and piping will go in at a later date. I want to first fill the pond to fit the liner to the sides, and then anchor the top edge. We're going to try and raise the pond edging 3 inches by surrounding the pond with 6-inch pool noodles compressed down with bricks and flagstone. The end effect will be an elevated pond above the flagstone walkway, with a 4" spill-over pipe leading to the greenbelt in case of pump failure or excessive rain. The skimmer concept is still in the planning stages, and is being designed to be added after I know the final general water level will be.

Once we have the pond basically set up, I'll drain it back to the second last level, re-install the pump and air line piping, and strategically replace the deep water plants before refilling. I'm trying to leave "paths" for me to use a pool leaf-vacuum to catch the debris on the bottom. Then I'll slowly re-fill the entire pond, adding the shelf marginals. Once the pond has "stabilized", and all water qualities have been checked, I'll transfer the fish back to the lower pond.

Then I have to repair the upper pond spillway liner cracks and re-level the waterfalls before I can start pumping from the bottom to the upper pond. Last year we had lots of problems with water going behind the waterfall and under the liners. I'm hoping I can tape a large piece of EPDM to the existing PVC liner to get me thru this season. Next year we'll probably have to replace the PVC with EPDM in the upper pond, but for now it will have to suffice.

As per John Steinbeck....."The best laid plans of mice and men are aft to go astray"........LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

CAn't comment on the plan as I have zero experience and am hoping to learn through yours!! :frisbee: Still it sounds good and perhaps others will have ideas for you. I have heard of people having to weigh the liner down because the groundwater came up so fast. Seems you have that covered.

Good luck with it. Try to remember to take pictures.

Steinbeck Yeah, story of my life these days, I wonder why I bother making plans....

[Louis]

I picked up my liner Tuesday,
2 bottom drains installed,
2' of water in..
and am looking at how to fold the corners..

how'd yours go??
(whats with the 2 hour beer?? your in the wrong union!)

[Jackie Ramo]

Hi Louis. Hospital corners is what I used in the inside pond which is rectangular. Be sure to fold the flap inside the fold so you have a straight line at the corners.

I need a union, no beer and no breaks today....

[Dave in Innisfil]

The "bulk-no-brains" guests arrived Friday, and after us hoisting a few pints in anticipation, decided to move the liner from the trailer to the pond area. Once the folded liner was in the pond, we stretched it out so the morning's sun would warm it. We pulled the liner back and decided to finish the centre, with encompassed a few layers of cardboard over the remaining stone, then two layers of Geo. As we stood around watching the bottom rise with groundwater, we voted to start filling the centre rather than pump out the groundwater underneath the new liner in the morning. I had been rotating the liner in the sun all day, and it was nice and plyable. It was 7 pm.

By 9 pm, we had the deep centre filled, and decided a dinner break would give the liner time to settle. By 10, we were back at it, putting strategic folds in the liner the best rookies can do. Another foot of water was added to cover the next layer of shelfing, and then we turned the water off to let the pond liner settle over night.

By 7 am the next morning, two of us early birds were knee deep in the 49 degree water, doing the tuck and fold thing as the water level rose. We ended up scrapping the original waterfall locations, having to completely removed them from the pond to place the liner. After placed the liner up the wall and into the top pond edge (nice to have lots of excess liner), we re-installed both waterfalls, positioned them closer together. Then we strategically placed bowling ball sized round rocks, flagstone and blocks where we intended our many plants would go. Old pieces of liner were cut to fit the bottoms of the milk crates to minimize any risk of punctures or tears. The plants were then transfered back into the pond, and the solar lights distributed amongst them.

Re-installing the pump and air lines was a bit more challenging than I thought, since we opted for an entirely new route, hiding the piping behind the two waterfalls. With some creative piping, thanks to a mixed inventory of fittings, the plumbing is hardly visable. The original skimmer tub concept of under the liner didn't seem feasible when we installed it, and opted to have it external. It's going to take some adjustment and fiddling, but should work.
Loud cheering followed plugging in the electrical, and both the water and air pumps worked like a charm. After running for a few hours, the circuit breaker tripped a few times, so we ended up installing a temporary dedicated GFI outlet inside the garage and have the pond pumps now on their own fuse in the house. Things us electrical types do when we're waiting for a pond to fill, eh...

By 10 pm last night, the water level finally reached within 6 inches of the new desired water height. The liner crew had departed, and both Tina and I were exhausted. The hat had been passed, and we now have $20 to restock our pond, probably a bit more once I take all the empties back to the beer store....LOL ... The reflection of the lights on the pond's surface was a welcome sight, believe me.

None of us were even close to being professional ponders, but somehow we've made it come together. Hospital corners wouldn't work on our irregular shaped pond, and I'm just going to have to live with the way it set itself for now. The pool noodle/brick pond extension has held so far, and will allow me today to level the pond and set the edging stones. No more doggie balls gonna roll into our pond !!! The plants and rocks were situated to provide protection for future fry and allow me to vacuum the deep cente. Most of our lily pots had 6" shoots, and are at different heights. We're working on a new marginal shelf beside the waterfall, and plan on hiding the skimmer tub with some of the excess liner. Once the skimmer is piped to my water-softener-filter, I'll conceil the tub with rushes and other marginals, something we couldn't do if we installed it under the liner.

We had to tie-wrap the foam insulation to the piping to conceil it, and stop it from floating by securing it to the bottom with heavy rocks. I used a long length of liner right across the top spill over as a temporary solution until I can re-line the upper pond. Any water that escapes under still trickles down the back of the waterfalls and ends up in the pond instead of behind the old liner. It's going to be a work in progress to syncranize the water flows, but we're pretty close. All in all, we now have two working ponds.

Yes, I took lots of pictures. No, I still haven't figured out how to post them... LOL

[Cinnamon]

Dave if you are having problems with posting pics you can send them to me and I will post them for you. pamth@hotmail.com

I was recalling when we put our liner in last Oct. Like you we had never put a liner in and really was newbies deluxe. That was way before I ever found this and other message boards. Our liner was 25 x 30. We had 6 people handling it. Now on the rebuild when we had the cinder block walls it was just my husband and I putting it down. With just 2 of us I think we wound up with a better fit!

I know you are breathing a sigh of relief now that the liner is in. Congrats!!!

Pam

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave this link will show you how to post pics here on the board:
http://backyardpuddle.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31 Start you own album and add to it as you want or use the little mountain icon to post for your current site. In addition you can 'manage attachement' and post direct to the thread. We aim to please with pics around here :)

Good work on the pond. I bet it was a wonderful relief to sit and see that water fill up. Nice to have friends to come over and work so hard. I sure hope you invite them back for a BBQ and to enjoy the pond once its finished.

[Terri]

Take Pam's offer or do as Jackie suggests or send the photo's to me... we wanna see pics!!! :grin:

[Dave in Innisfil]

As we suspected, our problems aren't over, just minimized. Despite our best efforts, patching/fixing the top spillover was only a partial success, or so it would seem this morning. The pond has dropped two inches overnight, some due to liner stretching, the rest to water loss behind the liner in the top pond. Since water is free, and Tylenol ain't, I'm gonna wait a while before tackling the top pond. Our super-human efforts the past two days have taken their toll on us physically, but our spirits are way up. We laughed for the first time in a long time around the pond yesterday. Seems one of the donated fish (about an inch long), somehow ended up in the lower pond. Little fish in a big pond syndrome. The others were too spooked to even attempt to net, so they'll remain there a few days.

I forwarded three pics for Pam to post for me. The first one taken Friday at dinner time. Note the pool noodle side extensions. With some tweeking and backing, they so far have made an excellant outer lip. The exact new depth of the pond is unknown, and at 49 degree's coming from the well, I ain't taking a tape measure out quite yet. What we lost in volume filling in the dead corner, we more than made up in depth. I'm figuring the pond is close to 5 feet in the centre now.

The next picture was taken during our beer and burger break. The plants were distributed without much expertise, and will probably be relocated once we have determined exactly what's in each pot. Somewhere around dinner time, we learned our well pump could handle two hose output, which greatly sped up the refilling process. By 10 pm that night, the pond had reached our new high water mark, and was left to sit and settle overnight.

The last picture is how our pond looked before we took a much needed "let's get the hell outta here" break last night. We donned our leathers, packed up the Harley, and went for a refreshing evening ride to watch the fireworks in Barrie. It was so nice to come home, and for a change just sit on the deck and enjoy our illuminated pond. Nice part about the dark is I couldn't see the mounds of flagstone yet to be laid.

My liner crew was awesome. Our home is our friend's and family's "cottage", and seldom a weekend passes without someone in the guest room, someone on an air mattress, and someone passed out on a couch. I'm going to acquire and name a fish after each "volunteer". We had a lot of laughs, got a little wet, and were all rather pleased with our efforts. Talk has already started on how we're going to tackle the upper pond this fall.

My homemade skimmer initially works like a charm. Cost so far ? Free. The water spills into the laundry tub, which is sucked out by a medium duty fountain pump (til I can afford better). The empty water planter, held down by dumbell weights, catches the surface debris, and also acts like a small settling tank too. The open drain hole ensures if the water level drops below the intake, the pump won't run dry. Currently, I'm routing the output back into the pond, but am planning on running it to a water softener I'm converting to a filter (new thread starting on that one soon....LOL) I'm replacing the weights with several bags of lava rock and other filtering material. It'll be a work in progress, but I was elated to see how well it kept the pond's surface clean in such a short time. With so much excess liner material around now, I should be able to conceil it nicely.

What's next ? Now the risk of frost is gone (we hope), time to get some of those floating plants, more Tylenol (tons of flagstone to replace), and a couple of remote control boats so Tina and I can sit on the porch and finally get some much needed and deserved enjoyment. We'll move the fin-kids to the lower pond after I've checked the water quality. But for now, a one inch goldie is having the time of his life in his new 10,000 + gallon home.

[Cinnamon]

Dave here are your pics :) Nice job for sure! I keep saying it will be nice to just sit by the pond for a change :lol: We do that at night but we still have flagstone to lay. We put down on pallet and part of another. My husband decided it wasn't big enough so he is ordering another pallet of flagstone. Not counting our deck out pond are right now is 30' x35'. I don't know what it will be with another pallet! !rofl

Dave for some reason my Adobe Elements wouldn't open the pics to resize them. I have sent them to Jackie to see if she can open them. Sorry :(

[Jackie Ramo]

Here you go, I've loaded them from the coppermine website.

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/Before.jpg
http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/During.jpg
http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/After.jpg

[Jackie Ramo]

Looking good Dave!!! My back hurts in sympathy though

[marla]

I love the dome net over the top pond, that is a good idea. Every thing is falling in place and looking great, the surviving fish are going to love it and it will be money well spent once it's complete, you'll get back so much enjoyment!

[Cinnamon]

Thanks Jackie! I finally got them to view here and was going to upload. Thank YOU for doing that for Dave :) As always you ROCK!

[Jackie Ramo]

No problem. Although knowing me I'll be housecleaning the website one day and those pics will disappear... :uhoh:

[Busy B]

Pictures explain so many things! Now I have a visual to understand your dilemma. :wink: Looks wonderful!! Love the rock around the top pond and boy do you have alot of plants!! All that hard work has really paid off..small tweaks and your on you way to just enjoying...congratulations to you and your crew!

[Terri]

Looks Great! :grin: Hard work pays off Congrats Dave,Tina and crew, good job.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Thanks for posting my pics, ladies. I spent much of the next two days "garnishing" the two ponds. As expected, I'm losing water at the spillover on the top pond where the PVC liner is shredded. My hasty attempts to patch the holes and tears met with mixed success. Right now, I'm satisfied that my ponds both hold some degree of water. Once other non-pond-related priorities have been addressed, I'll lower the top pond and properly temporarily fix the spillover until I can replace the top pond liner. Our only surviving Roy the Koi seems happy in his new home, but his few other remaining friends seem quite content to remain in the top pond. Tonight I added three sprigs of hornwort, a container of some duckweed-looking stuff, and some "beneficial start-up bacteria" that was recommended. The other oxygenator-type plants looked pretty well picked over from our long weekend.
Tina planted some fiddle heads and day lilies around the pond, but with construction in the planning stage it was best to put most of our annuals into planters. It's so nice to just sit back and catch a moment or two of enjoyment as I await my next pondmare......LOL

[Cinnamon]

Dave awaiting another Pondmare? I know that feeling! :lol: Believe me something will come up. Every time I relax something crops it's head up!

[Dave in Innisfil]

After a 500km day in a small car with a puppy and a 5 year old, coming home to sit in my armchair, on our deck, listening to the toads drown out the waterfalls, it almost seems worth all that it took to get there. Solar lights in the pond illuminate the now clear water to the deep trough, where Roy the Koi is a happy boy.

[Jackie Ramo]

A the joys of a pond. Certainly leeches the stress right away... well on the days the pond isn't causing the stress in the first place !rofl