Who is gonna bite my head off first

[Merlin]

Ok this has been on my mind for ages and I have to ask, do Koi forums put off the newbie Koi keeper :?: . If you read all the threads on what you need to keep koi, it can be quite frightening. Special filters, Skimmers oxygen towers, bottom drains etc. The average pond builder will look at the list and say I cant afford all that so I will not bother.

If we were talking about a guy that likes Koi, he is not in the market to show them, nor is he looking for that superb quality Sanke for example, he would just like some koi in his pond because they are nice fish. what does he really need to start his pond.

Ok Large and as deep as possible a decent size filter to handle waste and bacteria, Oxygen poss a waterfall or air pump. And of course test kits to check the water quality, and a good Koi site to help when he comes across a problem.
Providing he does not go mad with the stocking levels, and has a large enough filter to manage the fish he has, I feel that the other bits are a bonus as they cut down the work of managing the pond..

The majority of water quality problems can be handled by frequent water changes, floating debris can be removed with the aid of a simple net. Bottom debris can be removed with a simple hose powered vacuum cleaner.

Why do I ask ??. I built my first pond many years ago, I housed goldfish, Shubbies and Orffe. Over the last 2 years I have been introduced to Koi, and was fortunate enough to be given some large specimens. Due to their size I have made my pond bigger and deeper, and added a filter that will more than handle the amount of fish in the pond. I have a waterfall plus a large air pump. and an ultra violet light to keep the pond clear. My pond holds 2000 gallons .

No bottom drains, no skimmer, no heating supply.
( although I do have a small heater for my quarantine tank).

In all this time I have not had an illness in the pond, the Koi are thriving, the water quality rarely gives me cause for concern. The only problem I have had with a Koi was one that I was asked to look at from another pond, sadly the tumor she had got the better of me.

So I have to ask do we really need all of the specialist equipment, or is most of it labour saving devices on our part. ??

What say you :D

[Jackie Ramo]

I will admit that koi baords can often be intimidating for the new keeper. But if they read carefully and ignore the My way is the Only Way folks, they will soon learn lots of good information.

As for the pond, there are as many opinions as there are people :D Folks need to do what works for them. If a bottom drian isn't in the budget then be prepared to vac the pond. I don't have a bottom drain and frankly most times I enjoy vacuuming the pond. Yes there are some times when it is a chore, usually when its cold in the spring or fall. But so is raking leaves and doing laundry.. needs to be done.

The one thing that I do think is important that is off your list Merlin, is a skimmer. Truly it is a labour saving device, yet many ponds function quite well with out one. Again it is a matter of maintenance. No skimmer means more debris makes it to the bottom of the pond, if there is no bottom drain then more vacuuming etc will be needed to keep the water in good order.

The important part of keeping the pond is to keep the stocking levels low. The more fish the more work there is to maintaining the water. With a low stocking level the bells and whistles of ponding are not necessities but luxouries. With high stocking levels those items become necessities.

[Merlin]

Thank you Jackie, as to a skimmer my pond is netted on two sides with a bamboo matting cover fixed to the top of the pagola which covers the whole pond. So limmited air born debris :) . agreed on the overstocking part. I guess a lot of other things dictate as to what is needed bearing on mind where the pond is, and the sort of weather they get.

[Ron C]

Welcome Merlin. I think you have answered your own question. If you aren't having problems with water quality and the fish are fine then your system is fine. Most people on the koi boards are fanatics about their koi and don't want to have to do anything to the pond to keep everything a go.

[Busy B]

Hi Merlin :D

I agree with you...at first I browsed the sites that mainly dealt with water gardens and that's where I set my sights.

After I browsed the koi sites, it became apparent my pond is more functional as a water garden. My koi are small so if they grow large, I'll be in for maybe more problems but I already have ideas to make it more functional.

And we have the same climate, so I'm destined to bringing them in for the winter. My winter is too long. So when I go fish shopping I have to be aware of how many I can store inside and still keep them healthy.

So far mine have been inside in 150/200 gallons and they've grown :shock:

I think it all depends on what you can afford and what your goal is. There is to many variables to say one size fits all.

[ozzyrockman]

Merlin, I think Ron is correct, you answered your own question. No you don't need to go visit Mr/Mrs Banker to raise koi. I started this hobby with the attitude that I'm doing it no matter what and I'm not taking a second mortgage on my house to pay for it. Our original 750g koi pond/tank is still used today, it currently houses 9 small koi and acts as a qt pond. I planned it so that during the first 9 months we would keep baby koi while we built our big pond and when finished we would have a nice qt if we needed it. This approach worked well for us.

If memory serves me the 750g pond/tank was almost as expensive as our big pond because it is built into to our deck. If a person does not feel comfortable creating things like filters than they need to budget and buy what they can afford piecing it together over time if needed and ask lots of questions without getting confused. Our big pond is 4850g it currently houses 13 koi and is equipped with a bottom drain, skimmer, uv and now multiple filters all built myself. I feel we have a darn nice setup for what we have spent however I am a contractor and build for a living.

Below is a list our personal additions and an explanation why I "wanted" them in our big pond and keep in mind it took all of the winter of 03 and spring 04 to build and I am still working on the darn waterfall and stream.

UV light to keep the water clear and free of pathogens. No clarifying chems needed and offers less water changes.
Skimmer because our big pond is next to an apple tree, cherry tree and a row of doug firs. Honestly I don't want to case a net around while we are getting hit by 15-30mph sustained winds for the majority of the winter.
Tetra Bottom drain because it wasn't much more than a pvc network with gravel.

Allen

[Ian]

Not sure why some one would be intimidated by koi forums as a newbie as they would be looking for info anyway? The thought of keeping large fish in a closed system and the goals or objectives that are needed to have full size adult koi are not always so simple.. If your objective is to grow big koi fairly quick you would like to know the optimum way to do it.
The bottom drain is a very easy thing to install that saves you time mostly over years to come. Removing waste that promotes parasites and pathogens as efficantly as possible 24/7 away from the koi is priceless.
The gravity fed systems save money over the long term as the use of very efficant pumps can be used . Many more options for a passive way to settle out waste. Harder to drain away out to waste.
The skimmer saves time and removes to be waste very fast keeping the surface clear. Takes away food and bugs quik too ,that sucks
Many hobbiest know that they do not have the ideal system and look to boards to find there own way to do things. The way that fits the lifstyle of the owners and the fish load. Many of the new filters and such save time and money over the long term as do many of the do it yourself projects.

I think for the fish's interest it's best to discourage a hobbiest that wants to do minimal to keep it. What do you think?

Regards Ian

[Jackie Ramo]

Ian, the think the hobbyist who wants to do the minimal is discourged by the fish dying and the water being mucky and yucky. Or they learn that the minimal is more than they thought.

[Cinnamon]

As a "NEW" pond owner I can talk with experience on this subject! When they say "hindsight is 20/20" believe them! Every day it is I wish I had known then what I know now. Our first idea was a small water feature. I wasn't thinking granduer. So we agreed on one 4 ' wide and 17 ' long and 3.5' deep. We started digging. I did find Koivet at that time but didn't spend much time there. I never went to the message board. What I read was go see a pond first! We only knew one person with a pond and she refused to let us see it as she said it was too overgrown etc. So we went to the local pond guy. Who is the only major dealer in this area. And beleive me even the "experts" can lead you down a wrong path at some point. My hubby wanted the feature bigger. Always bigger. I said okay then I want KOI in it! haha I had to put my 2 cents in it. So that is when we went to the local guy. The first shovel was dug late Aug 2004. By Oct 25 we had it up, running and fish in it. Of course most of you know what happened 3 weeks later. So we were faced with fix what we had or fill it in. I got fish I don't want to fill it haha. Before anyone puts a pond in I recommend doing intense research! By doing that you won't make the mistakes we have. Because now we invest yet more to fix our problems. We are not discouraged at all! We keep trudging along. It will be spectacular if we ever finish it haha. More plans are in the works and talk of a second pond down the road!

[Jackie Ramo]

Just for those who don't know, Cinamon's pond collasped.... and they had to redo the enitre thing... A big job with bad weather.

[Jackie Ramo]

Hey where are those pics you promised Cin?

[Cinnamon]

Jackie when I can figure out how to do pics here! :roll: I tried earlier today but I didn't do something right. It didn't work. HELP??

[Jackie Ramo]

Pam, I'm the first to say that posting pics here is tricker than most sites but it can be done even by me, so it can't be too hard. At the top of each section is a sticky post telling you how. Read that, register and follow the instrucitons. The good part is, that you can than use the pics at any site, not just this one.

[Charlie]

Research was the key for me. I took baby steps...starting with half a whiskey barrel and then having to get something bigger because the damn fish kept growing and I kept buying more. So I graduated to a 300 gallon stock tank and after a lot of research and planning, finally last year I build a 4000 gallon pond. Now of course I want to build a bigger and better pond. I think it is good to start out small...learn how to keep the fish you have, how to take care of the water.

All the suggestions people have are good, but you have to apply it to what you want to do...what you need. Yeah, you can get all this high tech stuff but you also can keep it simple. Learning is a lifetime process.

[Terri]

All the suggestions people have are good, but you have to apply it to what you want to do...what you need. Yeah, you can get all this high tech stuff but you also can keep it simple. Learning is a lifetime process.
Very nicely put Charlie :D

[Jackie Ramo]

Well I've had a pond for 14 years and I'm still learning so I guess my lifetime isn't up yet :lol:

[Busy B]

Yup...when I started a year and a half ago I didn't even know what cycle was :shock: I'm learning in baby steps and starting to understand more of it as time goes by.

Still don't think it has to be an all or nothing situation.

[Merlin]

Quote from Ian.

" I think for the fish's interest it's best to discourage a hobbyist that wants to do minimal to keep it. What do you think?."

Ian If you look at it that way I have to agree with you, I have come across a number of ponds where the fish are living in conditions that are not suited for there size. either the depth is too shallow, or the pond is overcrowded. I have two 20" Ghosts in my pond that were rescued from such a pond. I suppose there has to be a line between the hobbyist, and the person that wants a koi pond, and is prepared to stick to the guidelines on how to look after it on a small budget.

Thank you all for your comments, it is by your answers that us newbies learn and our Koi survive:-D

Merlin

[Busy B]

Is your head still attached Merlin? :smile:

Knowledge is the key isn't it?

[GregBickal]

It can only be intimidating if the first person you get advice from is Steve Childers :frisbee:

[Busy B]

:lol: Or JR!rofl

[Merlin]

It can only be intimidating if the first person you get advice from is Steve Childers :frisbee:
Nice one Greg :grin: , infact I must say that your DIY info is a great help regarding this matter, it does in a way show that we can get by without having to spend loads of money.:)

[Mudsow]

I agree with Greg, I think it's the luck of the draw on who answers your first posts as a newbie. If it is a person geared towards show koi with a HUGE koi only pond, they tend to be more pushy in their opinions on how ALL koi should be kept.

If you get your first answers by someone that has a backyard pond and just likes to enjoy their little mutts, then I believe you can have a more comfortable accepted feeling right off the bat.

I was lucky enough to be greeted by a backyard ponder, so I was able to easily fall right in and recognize who's opinions I'd agree with and who's I'd just pick through for pertinent information.

There is a whole heck of learnin' to be had by the Steve Childers and the JR's in the world. It's just that they are usually WAY over my head. I enjoy reading their posts (or is that debates) %( I usually come away with some good info. But I know that their way of koikeeping will NEVER fit my budget or lifestyle.

Believe me, I have an 850 gallon INDOOR pond with submersible pumps, it is NOT what most koi people would call "ideal" but it works for me. It fits my budget, and my fish are healthy and I don't have to swat mosquitos OR worry about ice. That's what makes all those water changes worth it for me.

Everyone IS different, the key is not to get discouraged, but to perhaps divert your original plan into making a home more suitable for the koi you already have.

I started with 100 gal sheep tank with 8 koi and 5 goldfish :eek:

Over the years at koi-vet I've learned to reduce my numbers and enlarge their living quarters. And the fish are MUCH happier for it. I now have 5 koi and only 1 goldfish. And the kids are still growing. May have to reduce again this spring. It's not easy to do, but it's the best for my fish.

I don't think it's anyone's objective to scare new people. But new people NEED to be aware of what they've gotten themselves into.

Oh well, I'm done rambling now... what was the question???? :grin:

Mudsow

[Jackie Ramo]

Yes, I miss Mike Simpleton and his "there is no one way"

[GregBickal]

I dont beleive that there is only one path to Koi Kichi. We all do what we can within our means. (if I could sell a alot more CD's my means would be a little better :wink: ). Being poor sure brings out a persons creative side. I think sometimes thats more important.

Necessity is the mother of invention :grin:

[Nancy N]

I love this thread, way to go Merlin for starting it! This should be a sticky on all pond message boards. Great input by all of you! :wink: :-)

[Wulff]

I think as others have touched on, whats important is what you want out of your pond vs what others think you want.

For myself, I think of my "pond" as a mini ecosystem. Its not a "koi" pond although it houses some koi, its not a garden pond though it houses plants, nor water feature. My pond is a small slice of nature in my backyard, I'm just its caretaker. My goal is a functional, thriving "eco-system", where I can enjoy how "nature' interacts from spawning upto and including the many visitors I get.

I'll admit there is a fair bit of "intimidation" at first on some boards but alot of that is I feel misplaced and alot of it stems from different people looking to acheive different things out of their ponds.

In hindsight ( here we go again) I too wish I'd done alot differently. I know for a fact I'm going to have to thin my herd this year and thats difficult :(. I might have to thin again in fall as I'm not sure how bigger fish will do over *next* winter with the limited space I have. When I first put a spade to the earth the only thing I knew from "retailers" was....so deep for overwintering...and you'll be fine, btw did you see all the lovely 4 inch koi we have. ;)

Shoulda, coulda, woulda.
Wish id found some boards and people before id lifted that first spadefull of earth :)

In the end if you enjoy your pond and the results of your labor, don't let anyone tell you differently imo.