Hi need some help please

[tucker]

This is from someone on another site......I am copying it here, hopefully to get some help to try to help him....

I arrived home last night and discovered that two of my beloved had died. I'm pretty sure the two dead koi were among the 8 or so I that I purchased from a pet store about a month ago. I tested the pond water but everything checked out okay so I'm not sure why they died. I have now lost a total of 9 koi since I completed my first backyard pond in June 2004. The two koi that died yesterday were the largest ones I've lost thus far. Both were approximately 6" long. If anyone has any ideas of why my fish are dying, please let me know. I don't think that oxygenation is a problem since I have all my equipment running. The temperature is gradually starting to rise and the water temperature has been consistently staying in the 55 degree range for the past week or so. Any adice would be greatly appreciated...

My pond is approximately 2,400 gallons and I do have
a waterfall. I also have a submersible aerator pump, center bell fountain
in the deep end, and six floating frog spitters. I don't think aeration is
a problem. I didn't see any marks on the fish; they had obviously been dead
for at least a few hours by the time I found them. My test kit is pretty
new, I just purchased it about a month ago. The fish that died were not my
largest ones, but they weren't my smallest either. Each was approximately
6" long. The temperature is starting to rise a bit now where I live, could
this have something to do with it? The water temperature had been hovering
in the 45-50 degree range for the past few months but has recenlty risen to
about 55 over the past week. I think I read somewhere that koi tend to get
ill and die just as spring begins because their appetites start to pick up
but their immune systems haven't recovered yet from winter. Any advice you
could provide would be greatly appreciated...


Thanks everyone.......
Karyl

[captk]

Hi Tucker,

There is really not much to go on. :( The pond seemed to be well planned and constructed but 9 deaths in 8 months is a worrying trend.

It is probably too late but I would have suggested that he check the condition of the gills. Check for any damage and/or pale colour. At least feel the belly and see if it is mushy.

It is true that the winter months spend on the bottom of the pond would see them in contact with more aeronomas and if the warming occurs too quickly, the bacteria will get a head start from the koi's immune system and may led to infections. However, that is only one possibilities and no direct evidence to back that up yet.

It would be good to get a bit more history of the period leading up to the deaths. Most often it is described as sudden death but rarely does that happen in real life.

Just my 2c's worth. ;)

[Ron C]

To be of any real help here we need a lot more information. Filtration, water returns, any symptoms the fish were having, any change in behavior. What the exact water parameters are.
I agree with captk, my first thought was aeromonas, but as he said there are a host of things it could be.

[Terri]

Echoing Ron and cap here... a discription on the condition of the koi that died would help. What if any symptoms there might have been before they died, skin colour, flashing, isolating, milky slime coat, etc. If this poster has the ability to post pictures that might help too.

He mentions these are "pet shop" fish, this might be part of the problem. The koi he purchased may have been "sickly" to start off with. If he's new to koi he mayt not have noticed the initial symptoms....?

Hmmmm....?

[Jackie Ramo]

I'd been interested in the water readings. If the fish have no marks or stress signs I don't think it would be aeromonas, usually those fish have red bellies, ulcers etc. My line of thinking is pH. Course since the poster added fish without Qing it could be anything inlcuding flukes....

[Merlin]

Hi Tucker , I have to agree with what else has been said, and more info would help. Of the 9 fish you say have been lost, were they all sudden deaths, :?: or were there some gradual changes in the fish prior to death.

You say that there is a submergable pump in the pond, could that be faulty :?: , Sometimes a faulty pump can give off a charge yet only effect those fish that are in close proximety to it at the time of the fault, is there anyway you could get it checked out. .

Please get back to us asap with more info, and we will do our best to help out.

Jackie, am I correct in saying that with flukes that would be a gradual deteriation, listles and floating, and a pinkening of the gills. ?? I will get my book back out.

[Merlin]

Ok poss causes of sudden death.

Electricity leakadge / Chemical contamination / Oxygen problem / or a severe PH bounce. Please get back to us asap, maybe we can narrow it down.

Merlin

[Jackie Ramo]

I was being a bit tongue in cheek about the flukes Merlin, sorry. They would not cause sudden deaths but long lingering ones.

But it does seem that fish have been dying over a long period of time. So there is defnately a problem and a long lasting one.

Nothing to do but wait to see if Tucker has more information.

[Dayleen]

Did i understand you correctly?? You live in NJ and bought 8 fish a month ago, you put them out in your pond that has been between 45-50 degrees and you don't know why they died??

If i knew how to quote your post and put it in my answer that would be nice...lol

Isn't that what you said though?? First, if they came from a pet store a month ago like you said then they would have been in warm water. You putting them out in a cold pond (even if acclimated) would kill them...i'm just surprised that it took so long.

The fact that you have lost a bunch of them since June 2004 can most likely be attributed to parasites that have gone untreated. You need to get a hold of a Koi club in your area and ask for someone to scope your fish for you. They would be able to tell you what bugs your dealing with and help you treat them. Depending on what they say, it may still be too cold for the appropriate treatment to be used. They may need to come inside....which creates a whole new problem.

[Jackie Ramo]

Dayleen the QUOTE button is in the top right corner of the message box.

Good reading, I missed the pet shop part... Surprised any of them lived.

BTW Tucker is posting this for some one else, he did not do this. :shock:

[tucker]

Dayleen, this is for a poster on another site.
I live in Central NY, and my pond is still frozen, this other poster I believe lives in Ca.......
I asked him for his water parameters, and any other information he can give me...this is his first pond, and I am hoping, with more info, we can help him

Karyl

[Tamianth]

Hi Tucker,
I think Dayleen might have caught on to at least part of the culprit! With winter temps in water and the fish came from a store... *ouch* But then if he/she is in CA, it will also depend on North or Southern end. :?

IMHO, that just could have been a very drastic drop in water temp between store and pond and too much of a shock and stress to there systems.

Not to mention that they should have went directly to quarantine first, especially if there are other fish already established in pond!

Yes, I think we need to see water parms and how many fish in pond etc! :)

[Dayleen]

Ok ... first...i clicked the reply button which doesn't have the quote part so i guess that where my blondness comes in ....lol Thanks for the education...maybe i can get it right next time :lol:

I'm glad the posting was for someone else and she didn't actually do that. But, even in California i think it's to cold to put them out unless their water is over 60. That's sort of my own personal temperature limit. I don't sell fish to people unless their water is at 60 or they are going in doors. Just to much shock to the poor things.

Wal-Mart here is selling Koi already and the waters only 40 outside. When people call me trying to figure out why their new pet store special died i tell them to go sit in a frozen stream for a week and then come back and tell me how they feel.....then they get it....duh !!!

At any rate, it could be a combination of cold intolerance and a heavy parasitic load...maybe even water issues. I would suggest they take a water sample to the pet store, start there. Get a hold of a Koi club (as easy as going to www.akca.org or www.koiusa.com and get someone over there to scope them. That's all you can do with out guessing and doing shot gun therapy.

[captk]

Hey Karyl,

You know what will be a really good idea? :) Why don't get the other poster to sign up here and we can communicate directly. I think there are a lot of information that need to be exchanged and doing it by relay is just going to be a pain. I'm a bit concerned that he lost 9 fish in 8 months. That might hint at some fundamental problems with his new pond.

[Jackie Ramo]

CaptK, you are just full of good ideas!! :D

[captk]

We aim to please. :lol:

[tucker]

Ok, I gave him this site to check into.....
But, this is his reply on the other site, when asked for more info....
I know what everyone is going to say, but go ahead and say it....

Wow, you guys are great!
I really do appreciate everyone's advice. I have been checking the PH, Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite levels in my pond regularly and everything looks good. THe PH level has remained stable, therefore I don't think PH spike is the problem. I feel relatively safe in saying that the water quality in my pond is not a problem. I have been checking it on a regular basis for the past month.
Of the 9 total koi I have lost thus far, 4 were lost early on when I had all my fish crammed together in a small 100 gallon pond with no bio-filter in place back in June. These deaths were basically due to my being new to ponding. I had way too many fish sharing such a small space. This problem was solved when I completed my big pond in September.
So far my big pond has been relatively successful. I lost one small 4" koi just as winter began, which I attributed to the sudden temperature drop. I purchased 7 new koi about 6 weeks ago and I am pretty sure the two that died were among these. I didn't notice any change in their behavior since they spend so much time near the bottom of the pond, but I guess it's possible they were sick. I purchased 2 new koi a few weeks earlier from the same pet store, which I believe were from the same batch, that also died with within a few weeks after being added to my pond.
I think water temperature is also partly responsible for my recent fish deaths. The current water temperature in my pond has consistently remained in the 55 degree range for the past month or so. I floated the fish before adding them to my pond, but I've since learned that it isn't good to add fish during the fall or winter months as koi can go into shock. I also didn't add any pond water to the bag before floating the fish, which is a tip I heard from another ponder.
So far every fish I've lost has been less than 6" long and died within a month after being added to my pond. Furthermore, all of the koi that died were purchased from the same pet store. I have purchased koi from a total of three sources; two pet stores and a fellow ponder who lives nearby.
I have all pumps running now as well as a submerisble aerator, so I'm pretty sure aeration is not a problem either. My pond holds approximately 2,400 gallons of water and is 42" deep at its deepest end. Currently there are approximately 40 koi ranging in size from 4" - 20" and about 15 or so comet goldfish living in my big pond. I know that I may have too many fish living in my pond, but I really don't think overcrowding is the problem either since I have an excellent bio-filter system in place.
I will continue to monitor the water quality in my pond on a regular basis. I also added salt to my pond about a month ago and have been monitoring the salt level as well. I'm hopeful that I won't lose any more fish, but if I do I will definitely examine the body for any clues as to what happened.
Again, I really do apprecaite everyone's advice. You guys are awesome!
Joseph

[Dayleen]

OH MY GOD !!!

He only confirmed everything i suspected already....no surprise.. BUT 40 Koi in 2400 gallons!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't even have that in my "small" pond of 8000 gallons and i have $6800 of filtration on it.

No disrespect at all but here is another newbie in denial (and not the one in egypt either)

Someone please help this guy find a Koi club so he doesn't kill any more fish.

[ozzyrockman]

WOW!!! Now that’s one heavy load and no qt regiment sounds like a death sentence if I ever heard one. I wonder what kind of filtration setup Joseph has to consider it an excellent bio system for 40 koi in 2400g? Wasn't there a guy keeping about 70 koi in about 3000g last year but didn't he have some type of exotic filter system that took up a big portion of his yard and didn't he also know what he was doing? Please prove us wrong Joseph. Dayleen you hit the nail right on the head GET THIS PERSON INVOLVED WITH A KOI CLUB and take him to a few pound that do have "excellent" filtration. Allen

[Jackie Ramo]

Well disaster waiting to happen for sure 40 koi and 15 goldfish no quarantine buying for several places. I'm surprised he hasn't lost more than he has.

[captk]

Ah, but we haven't got to spring yet. The trial is still ahead.

I suppose I can see where he is coming from. Having waited so long for a pond and finally got one designed and built to his spec, he must be keen to stock it quickly so that he can show off his proud and joy. You might as well call it the "new owner syndrome". ;) I wonder what type of filtration he has to give him so much confidence? He must have done some research beforehand. :?

[Jackie Ramo]

And he is testing the water, so some points acquired.

[tucker]

I have a question....just trying to understand.
The water is still cold.....so oxygen levels is really not a problem yet, but when it warms up, can it become a problem.

[captk]

That shouldn't be a huge problem if he has his filters running, good aeration and the temp didn't jump up too sharply. But there will be other issues though.

[ozzyrockman]

Hello Tucker, oxygen will be the least of the problems if an adequate pump and filter is not running for the load he has on this system. As Captk said, spring has not fallen yet and with an immature bio he is going to be faced with more problems especially if he feeds moderate to heavy without a real good filter system that can keep up and I'm not talking just a filter I'm talking a system. There is still the issue of no qt practice in place, once that water hits 60 plus and nothing has been done oh boy there will be problems. Allen

[tucker]

Thank you.

[Jackie Ramo]

Most ponds don't run into a lact of oxygen in the cold weather. Mind with that stocking and a nice algae boom... one night the entire pond could go.

[Merlin]

Crikey I thought my pond was a little overstocked ( dont worry guys this will soon be soughted out, providing I can find a home for for the shubbies and a few waifs and strays that I have rescued from verry small ponds) My filter on the other hand is large enough to cope at present, but I realise that the more room the Koi have the better it will be for them.:-)