Tear at bottom of liner

[Dave in Innisfil]

In doing my spring pond clean up, I completely drained my 5000 gallon pond. I'll take responsibility for one small hole, but I found about a 2 inch fold gash on the bottom of the liner. Groundwater is leaking in constantly from both holes, more so of course from the larger one. The water coming in is crystal clear, and is likely groundwater since our watertable is less than 3 feet below grade. I can't stop the flow long enough to put a patch on it, so there's no way I can apply a patch to a dry surface. Refilling the pond is a priority right now, as I have an overcrowding situation in my upper 2000 gallon pond.

I'm wondering the implications of these holes, and if anyone has any suggestions on how to fix them before I refill the pond.

[Jackie Ramo]

If only we could guarantee that the groundwater was there all the time you could have a flowthrough system and be the envy of everyone on the board.

Sorry though fixing liners isn't my thing. so can't offer a suggestion.

[GregBickal]

Pipe boot !!! Cut the hold round, shove a pipe in it and cap it off. Mabye it could be the future location for a bottom drain.

[Ron C]

Have you tested the water coming into the pond for chlorine, ammonia? If it is good water, why mess with it. That would take the place of water change outs and be a flow through system, that most would love, myself included. If the water isn't good water, then Gregs boot is the best patch I can think of, without pulling the liner out and patching it.

[Jackie Ramo]

The only problem Ron, is if in summer, the ground water dries up, the pond does as well. One needs to be in control of the water both quantity and quality.

[Dave in Innisfil]

I stopped off at a pool supply store, who have an aquarium-safe underwater two-part epoxy. The packaging states that it was found safe on some kind of minnow and is "non toxic". My problem would be attaching the patch to the liner with all the water flowing through. But it sounds like if the water is good, it could be a blessing. With a seemingly bottomless supply now of fresh well water, water loss isn't a problem and the pond never over-runs the edge
so I'm going to de-prioritize this for now and keep concentrating on both keeping my fish alive and getting their summer home ready for them.

The tear is on the second deepest shelf, on the slope side in a liner fold. Amongst the muck at the bottom I found what may have once been a drain. Since I have a high volume construction pump, emtying the water from the pond takes minutes, and with the bucket filter I made, stays relatively unclogged and sucks in debris for removal in the outer layer. I can't attest to when the last time this pond got such a thorough cleaning, but I promise I'll never let it get that bad. The previous owner told me it needed a thorough cleaning every other year, but he didn't say whether he had done one.

In the pond shed rubble, I found many empty and partially full bottles of Muratic acid. Is there some part of pond maintenance that requires that stuff ? I scoffed at first to being told to add 150 lbs of salt prior to this pondmare. Is that what you use to adjust pH ?

[marla]

I know we used it in the pool, but a pond??? I wouldn't till an expert tells you. You need to write a book when this is all over. I would be in the corner crying if all this happned to me!

[Dave in Innisfil]

We figured we might as well see how much the pond will leak when full, so we started filling yesterday morning. By 6 pm, the pond was full to it's usual high water mark. It seemed to take forever for the last foot of water, and we thought the puddles in our neighbor's yard were awful deep for the rains we were having. By 10 pm, the water had drained out, and now was the same depth as both my neighbor's yards. Luckily, one is a cottage and the other is someone who doesn't use their back yard at all. Our assumption now is that when the pond gets full, it stretches the liner, thus opening the hole even bigger, and at some point the inflow of water into the pond thru this hole changes to outflow, and either I have to fix the hole, or watch our pond rise and fall with the local water table. In cleaning the pond, I found a few loose pieces of liner that could have been patches that have come unglued. Water for the pond costs me nothing but hydro to pump, and my time to supervise, but this will never do.........

Greg's idea about inserting a tube gave me an idea we're going to try. I'll need to drain the pond right back down to the bottom, insert this drain patch I found thru the backside of the liner (via the hole) and wet glue a cap on to it somehow. With the water inflow somewhat subsided, I hope to get another larger patch to completely cover the hole. When I refill, I'm hoping that the pressure from the full pond will press the larger patch tightly against the side of the pond, thus acting like a bathtub stopper. Hmmmmm.....wouldn't it be just too easy if this actually worked ???????

[Jackie Ramo]

Take some time to visit Greg website and I highly recommend his CD on DIY ponding. Makes it look easy enough that I could do it.

Muratric acid ?? Some acid is used for curing concrete ponds but this morning my brain can't remember if this is it or not.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Tina and I (especially "I") are becoming totally frustrated with our ponds. Upon pumping out the water from our lower pond, we discovered several new cracks and tears in our liner. Some pour water in at an alarming rate constantly, while others dry up when the water level drops below them. Some of the largest tears are cracks along the folds and seams. My guess is that a combination of cold temperatures, walking on a cold liner, filling a cold liner, placing too heavy lily pots on an unfilled pond, too rapid filling of a pond, and generally a lack of experience all have contributed to the holes. Guilty as charged. I'll take my punishment, probably in the wallet. My hands are almost unusable from being in and out of the cold water, and I'm already a few dollars lighter on chems, meds and repair parts. Tina shudders to think of the hours I've spent back there this past couple of weeks.

Anyone ever heard of a liner repair service or does each ponder learn how to do such things by trial and error ? I'm sending for Greg's DVD.....but I'm begging for help and advice now.

At what point do you replace the liner, and how big a hole is deemed unrepairable ? I've got one that looks like a spider's web 10 inches square, and another that flows in groundwater at a rate a 2-inch construction pump can barely keep up with. Smaller ones I think I can patch with liner and tape, but some of the others I'm not so confident about.

Is the only solution to pull up the liner, patch it and re-install it ?

Considering my on-going saga, is this what I can expect annually ?

[Terri]

I don't know how old the bottom ponds liner is but it doesn't sound like 40mil EPDM, even at 10years old it shouldn't be cracking. You would have to pull it out to repair, and it's not worth it imho... replace the liner with new 40Mil EPDM and underlay(not carpet but actual Geo Textile). I know where you can get a good deal, email me and I'll send you his link.

[Jackie Ramo]

I'm with Terri on the liner. A good 45 ml liner is almost indistructable. Flexible in freezing temps and will not tear with a big fat lady jumping on a sharp shovel trying to dig a plant up... so yours is not the right liner. People think they can save money using a swimmingpool liner or the cheap 20 ml liner... always sorry afterwards.

[Charla]

" will not tear with a big fat lady jumping on a sharp shovel trying to dig a plant up..."

Jackie, How could you have seen me! !rofl

Charla

[Jackie Ramo]

I have spies everywhere !wow!

[Dave in Innisfil]

Now, after a few hours, the water level in the pond has stabilized to close to the normal water table, for whatever that is worth. Nice and clear. The existing liner is more like a hard black plastic, with flexibility happening only when it gets warm. The upper pond has an underlay, but I'm unsure as to the bottom pond yet. I'll e-mail you, Terri, for that link. Thanks.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well there is no use patching it as it is only going to give you more grief. Why is it that when things start to go bad they just roll down hill at an alarming rate.... :sad:

[Dave in Innisfil]

Today I met the local "pond guy" who has previous experience with my pond. While he assisted in the design, repair and maintenanace of the pond, he wasn't contracted to build it. It's been a problem-pond for quite a while, mostly because of design modifications and cheap materials. He knows my pond, and had many tales of its history to tell, as well as many recommendations on what should be done to fix what was done or what shouldn't have been done. Later this week, he's sending a pond technician to determine the future of our pond, repair or replace the liner.

[Jackie Ramo]

Glad you have someone that can come on site and give you an educated opinion along with a price... one hopes its a price you can live with.

[Dave in Innisfil]

We've decided that since the fish are still living "somewhat" comfortable in our top pond, we're more likely than not going to replace the liner completely with the 45 mil EPDM as has been suggested to us by many. Band-aid solutions like trying to fix so many holes just means another pondmare at another date. No thanks. Time for us to take a deep breath, glean some idea's from you experienced ponders, and look at our pond as part of our property value as well as a hobby. The verdict on installing a bottom drain isn't in yet, but we are considering some sort of surface skimmer, and bringing up the bottom to a 4' depth from the current 5' to have reasonable access to the pump without draining 75% of the water, stressing the fish, and risking the sides collapsing in.

I've been following the other threads on fixing holes in EPDM liner, so the local ponder's advice to go PVC again is probably based on "old school" knowledge. With rocks, plants, dogs and people (yes, I'm now a true ponder.....48 degrees is pretty damn cold for semi-submersion) falling into the pond, I'm going to need some durability. I can't see plastic giving me the same life as rubber.

[Cinnamon]

Dave I have been following this thread. I haven't posted because I am still too much of a newbie with her own pondmares! :lol: The people here has kept my sanity. I am glad you could call an expert in to access the problems and suggest fixes. Now that the fish are content in the upper pond I wouldn't rush too much and do a good job so you won't have any more pondmares! Just keep an eye on them and the water quality!

Pam

[Jackie Ramo]

I don't know how old school his knowledge would have to be, my first pond 14 years ago was epdm.... 45 ml. Still operating as of last summer. We moved so I haven't been over that way for awhile.

[Dave in Innisfil]

We're still losing fish to external influences. Something's killing them, dragging them out of the pond, but not eating them. I've had to resort to completely tarping the pond at night.

Lots of further discussion in this household about the future of the ponds. We're taking two steps back now, kicking back several idea's based on suggestions and readings. Knowing our pond and its past, the local pond builder had some recommendations we should seriously consider. So have you folks. A bit of information overload at times, and an underload of funding and time.

Our lower pond is shaped like a four-leaf clover, thus we get two dead zones where water doesn't circulate well. Yes, I could air stone them again as I did last year (I hate looking at exposed wires and tubes), or I could fill them in, or they might make a good place for a skimmer or filter...decisions,decisions..

The 5 foot depth is proving to be a problem. With steep sides, I was told I'm lucky they haven't collapsed since the pond is empty. Probably the frost still in the ground is the reason. The pond has had a history of walls collapsing, so either I fix the pond promptly now, or keep filling it with water until such time as I can do the liner change. I start my "paying" job May 9th, and after that will have limited time for big projects.

Good thing to keep advice to those more experienced, Pam. I sounded off about our plan to limestone screen (recommended by a landscaper) to fill the cracks between our flagstone. I was ready to order it until I learned about the run-off effect on the pond's pH level. With two ball-happy dogs and lots of small children playing around the pond, we decided we want/need a small rim/edge around the pond anyways, and to slope any walkway run-off away from the pond. Now we're considering using small river pebbles. The ceaseless problem of coniferous needles falling in the pond also will need to be addressed. Just when I think I have a solution to one problem, someone pipes up with a reason it won't work... LOL

[Jackie Ramo]

Dave, was great talking to you. Don't forget when weighing what to do what works for each pond is different. I do it wrong every year but it works for me. If you are aware of the needles affecting the pH then fixing it isn't aproblem. Most problems are caused because we are not aware of how to fix them. I have a big fir tree beside the pond. The skimmer gets 95% of the needles and the cones so it has little impact on the pond.

[Cinnamon]

Dave I know all too well about dead zones. We had one complete area like that. So we built another waterfall and treating it like 2 ponds. I put a floating skimmer in that end also. We have a Savio skimmer in the other end. If you ever want to check out our pics here is the url. There are a LOT of pics on there.

http://photos.yahoo.com/pamth@sbcglobal.net

When we rebuilt our pond with cinder blocks I put what my husband called a speed bump on top. I took mortar and domed it up about 3-4". It works well. That way no runoff can come back in the pond. We are about to lay flagstone now and we will make sure the runoff is away from the pond. Our project started the last of Aug 2004 and still going. It does take time! GOOD LUCK!

[Dave in Innisfil]

Thanks for all the advice and recommendations. I'd prefer to sort thru a pile of idea's based on experience, rather than come to rash band-aid solutions and re-doing things a second time when I get smarter. I just came from the local landscape supply, and they laughed when I tried to get a price on heavily clayed soil. I've plenty of cinder blocks sitting idle, and they might be the solution for building a retaining wall and filling in the dead zones. Now I'm not only considering the bottom drain, but also leaning towards some kind of skimmer since most of our debris is at one time floating on the surface. Now if I could only train my fish to do their business closer to the pump and future bottom drain....LOL

Once again I flooded the neighborhood to get to the bottom of the pond to retrieve my deep exhaust pump for a fitting repair. My fin-kids are hiding under the tarp, venturing rarely to the side I pulled back.

[Dave in Innisfil]

Tina and I had the pleasure of visiting the John's on Saturday, and would like to thank you for your advice and suggestions. Ian was a great help, explaining the dynamics of the drain, filter and skimmers, and unfortunately giving me too many good idea's at this time of pond re-build. This being a one-man job, I'm having to juggle what I should do, with what I can do, with what I can afford to do. That big black half-filled hole in our backyard will just sit there for now while I make some decisions. What few fish we have left are now residing in the 55 gallon aquarium on our porch, their home until I can improve upon their previous ponds.