Scales sticking out

[Jackie Ramo]

Here I was sure everyone was alright but I got a better look just now and one of the doisu has all his scalles sticking out. I've brought him into the greenhouse for warm up.

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2539.JPG

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2541.JPG

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2543.JPG

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2545.JPG

Belly etc look clear and white, no red streaking or sores, good slime coat.

[Jackie Ramo]

A bit of history with this fish. He had Ich really bad last summer and this is his first winter outside. He has been small enough in the past to overwinter inside with Tweet as a companion.

So far I've added a bit of salt and am just letting him warm up.

[Terri]

As I recall, cold water can bring on "dropsy" type symptoms - without bacteria being envolved..I have some data on that somewhere I'll see if I can find it. I don't see any inflamation around the scales...
Hopefully warm water and salt will bring him around in a day or two.

Do you have this one in the greenhouse pond or in the stock tank?

[Jackie Ramo]

Right now Spice is in a rubber main tub. Last year the other doitsu did the same thing... Warm water and a bit of salt were all that was needed then but Spice looks a bit worse. He will go in with Tweet once he is warm enough. They are still salted so.... Heck even the Betta is salted. Maybe I should by shares in Sifto Salt :D

I see a lot of water changes in my future :-(

[Jackie Ramo]

Well, last night I decided he'd be better off out of the small tub and into the pond.... so as I was getting ready to float him... he jumped and landed in the pond.... Always have a good grip on you koi!!!

Anyway at six am he was trapped under the submerged filter on his side... not something I wanted to wake up to. So I tried to get him out so I could see what he died of but once I moved the filter he swam away. Not strongly but away.

Now at 10:00 am he is looking much stronger and the scales seem less raised that yesterday.

I need to do a water change already. Stessed fish give off more amonia...

[Ian]

Good pictures Jackie, never seen that on a doitsu before. Kind of looks like a defence response to don't eat me I'm a puffer fish. Is this the first winter for this koi as I'm wondering if it would happen every winter? It does not have that usual pincone look as it is not very swollen like dropsy would do. Very interesting indeed, good luck and keep us posted.

[Jackie Ramo]

Yes, it is his first winter outside. He's always wintered inside with Tweet. Two weeks ago when we had the thaw he looked fine but... actually he looks better today but just came up and blew air out his gills... He's been through a lot and is salted at 0,24 so we'll see how he does.

Last year the other doitsu did the same thing but she was quite bloated as well but 3 days later in warm salted water and she was just fine. She looks good out there now. For which I am glad. I can set up for more than one sick fish but its a lot of work :D and we have to stop eating in the greenhouse.

I hope I brought the fish in before anything attacked that exposed skin under the lifted scales. Why this has happened is a mystery to me. Water out side is very good ammonia 0, nitirites 0, nitrates 12.5 kh 120 ph 7.5 which is low for me but not a bad thing.

[Busy B]

Wonder if there just more susceptible to temp change? Warm days, cold nights still?

Was great pics...the mommy in me would be thinking..owwwweee

[Jackie Ramo]

I'm not sure Busy. Cooper my other doitsu has been out every winter for a total of (counting on my fingers here) this will be 3 and only one year was there a problem. She looks good out there now and seems to be swelling with eggs. Trust me to name two fish Alice and Cooper only to have the female be Cooper. Oh well it fits :()

[Jackie Ramo]

Its a bit hard to see in these pics but the tail end scales are almost completely flat now and one side is much flatter than before. His right side is still pretty pine cone or puffer fish as Ian would say.

Beside him here is the not so little butterfly, they and Tweet keep nudging him expecially when he goes to the bottom.

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2564.JPG


in this pic you can clearly see the left side has receded

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2572.JPG

[Terri]

Thsi is from an article REC wrote about "dropsy"


And, it is also important to point out that dropsy type symptoms are reasonably common when water temperatures in the fall and spring (or unusually variable winters) are bouncing up and down. This is cold-water bloating and is caused by a mal-function of the osmotic process. If you see this and have experienced water temp fluctuations, I suggest that you remove the fish to a pond side .6% salt bath for 30 minutes and then send him back. An increased salt level will re-start the osmotic process and help relieve the problem. If it does not work the first time, you may have to remove the fish to a separate tank and longer exposure to increased salt levels.. A level of .3% works OK for longer periods of time.. also raising the tank temps to 65 or so will help too.

[GregBickal]

Looks like dropsy to me.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well too late to put him back in the pond now :-? But he seems to be doing quite well a little stronger each time I go and look at him and the scales are going down

Greg I agree it looks like dropsey but I don't think (hope) it is. The body is not swollen or bloated just the skin under the scales. Hard to see in the pics. Also the fist itself is not bloated as you can see in the pics. I did see a red spot but I do think that was caused by me stabbing him with the net when I thought he was dead this morning.... I am not at my best at 6 am :???:

[Jackie Ramo]

Spice doesn't seem to be doing all that well. He swims funny and doesn't seem able to reach the surface of the water. He sinks to the bottom if he doesn't keep moving. I suspect it maybe his swim bladder. He is salted to 0.21 at present and water temps are 70F and the heaters are plugged in again.

Any suggestion as to what else I can do for him.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well it seems Spice is healing himself without intervention from me, thankfully. He is swimming fine this morning and as you can see in the pic his scales are almost back to normal. He showed a bit of interest in food but did not eat.


http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2585.JPG

[Busy B]

Had to be the cold...looks like a bigger tank indoors is in your future :wink:

[Jackie Ramo]

I wish but this is as big as it gets. The gas pipe for the heater is right at the edge of the pond so we could not go higher without paying someone to come in and move the pipe... maybe one day when we are having other gas work done but for the long term this is what the fish can have. Now if I win the lottery we'll just put an atrium over the main pond and be done with it.

[Jackie Ramo]

Seems that Spice is getting a cloudy eye and that eye is popping a bit. He showed more interest in food this morning but didn't get any as the pigglets got it all. The scales have not receded any further. Water temp is 72F this morning but the greenhouse is over 80F so I expect the temps to climb a bit more. Salt is the same 0.24

[Busy B]

Got any medicated food?

DD had a goldfish with dropsy...she brought in some med food and crushed some antibiotics and fed it to him with a syringe...it got well...I'd have to ask her for more specifics. She pulled the info off one of her goldfish forums.

[Jackie Ramo]

No medicated food as I threw the last stuff I bought out as it was old. I may have to call Randall and see if he has any in stock. But as he isn't eating as of yet I'm not sure the food will do much good.

[Terri]

I wouldn't try feeding him yet... he's just come out of the deep freeze ;-) so he'll need sometime to adjust and get his metabolism going.

Cloudy popped eye.. don't like the sounds of that. Hopefully all he's done is banged himself on your pump or TT stand. Now if that other eye pops... you might want to phone your vet. Heck, phone your vet anyways... best to be prepared.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well, remember the other morning when I thought he was dead... banged him around real good with the net trying to get him out from under the filter.... hey he sure has improved since then :D

I'm not actually trying to feed him, just the other 3. He's swiming better and not sinking any more.. Hangs out with Tweet a lot, probably exchanging torture notes about me.

I'm not in panic mode as yet. A water change tomorrow but I think I may keep the salt level at 0.2 for now.

The eye may have been swollen before and I may not have noticed it being fixed on the scales etc.

[Jackie Ramo]

Can't get a good pic but his scales are almost totally smooth now and his eye seems clear although still a touch swollen. He has a red mark that is fading and which I suspect was me stabbing him with the net.... :-x

So I believe that Spice will make a full recovery.

[Terri]

That's good news :grin:

I should probably come get those baby butters soon... two big fish in there is enough to handle...

[The Other Lynda]

Sounds like he's well on the road to recovery. Now, just don't "stab" him again any time soon... !rofl

[Jackie Ramo]

Well as long as he doesn't lie on his side under the filter and pump playing dead, I promise not to stab him with the net. And if the stupid thing had swum away after the first stab, I wouldn't have stabbed him 3 times :lol: I did say I'm not a morning person right???

[BonnieIN]

Glad to hear that he's improving Jackie.
I had a goldie that had dropsey symptoms and Roddy recommended using salt(I believe it was him)

Miss Piggy is alive and well! :smile:

Bonnie

[Jackie Ramo]

Well although I do have a tendancy to run around and wring my hands when my fish are sick, I keep those fingers off the meds unless they prove necessary. I find with good warm water most things take care of themselves if caught soon enough. Althouhgh I am not sure that Spice had dropsey, I do think he was just cold stressed. I think I hit him in the eye with the net.. !bonk and his side as well... proof that you should handle them carefully even if you think they are dead :smile:

[Busy B]

Almost all well...how cool!

[Jackie Ramo]

Not the best pic but the only one that shows his scales have not laid completely down as yet. Just the one side the other side seems ok. He is eating and acting normal. I wonder if they will ever lie correctly.

http://jackieramo.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN2774.JPG

[Jackie Ramo]

When feeding the fish this morning I noticed that Spice now has redness under his scales. On the side and one scale on the other side. To much glare for the camera right now.