Question about paralyzed tail tube ?

[GregBickal]

Yeah yeah, Ive been to busy worrying about my Ochiba to think about breeding for the last few days :uhoh: I'll got that page updated today. Works best on Internet Explorer

[Jackie Ramo]

What's up with the Ochiba?

[GregBickal]

For info on the ochiba, go see this thread over at NI
Ochiba swimming funny (like paralized tail) (http://members4.boardhost.com/koimag/msg/98873.html)

I only posted it on NI, cause I figured, that would be the group of most knowledgeable koi people. I havent gotten many responses.

[Dayleen]

Greg, i had it happen to 2 Dainichi Koi that i brought in last year. I was told by Brett that sometimes it corrects it's self.....it did. It took about 2-3 months and they are fine now.

Now i have another one that is doing it (all in the 10" size) i don't know why but i would think maybe it was startled and either hit the tank wall or pinched a nerve in it's back somehow. It has no injury that i can see and seem's fine otherwise.

For me i didn't treat with anything that could have done it...no organophosphates at all. Seems to only happen to the Japanese Koi....of course .

I would give it time to rest...see what happens because there's nothing you can do about it anyway.

[GregBickal]

Dayleen: Thank you. I was hoping I could find someone who had seen this before. These japanese koi are prettier than domestic, but they also come with their problems. Ugh !! :roll:

One of the mods want to move this sick fish stuff to another thread please :D Sorry I got off topic on my own thread ;)

[Dayleen]

No doubt about it.....if anything can go wrong, it will ...but only with the Japanese Koi. They are as you say, prettier but they are weaker and have a much lower tolerence level for injuries and water quality issues. The higher class they are the worse it is.

Ever get envious of these self proclaimed "advanced" hobbiests ponds and filters? As you get farther into keeping Koi you always get into the higher end fish but what you don't realize at the time is the extra time and effort it takes to keep these spoiled fish happy. The $80.000 ponds and $30.000 filter systems aren't just to brag about, they are a necessity of keeping the fish alive...either that or you spend years fighting problems and eventually give up the hobby.

Keeping high class Koi in anything less than this can be done...it's just going to take more dedication to keep things as close to perfect as you can in an imperfect world. Don't worry about this Koi. If it never fixes it's self it will still be pretty, just look retarded when it swims away fast...just call it spaz :lol:

[Jackie Ramo]

Dayleen, if that is the case I'll stick to my mutts. They giv me lots of pleasure and headaches without having something that needs to be pampered to survive. I wonder if it is all that inbreeding they do with the fish to get the pretty colours. Like dogs many breeds are now being ruined as folks keep breeding to the campion without thought that that bloodline is already in the dog...

[GregBickal]

These Japanese koi are definetly a different animal than our mutts. They brought in the nastiest strain of aeromia bacteria like I have never seen before. Any little trace of Ammonia .25 and the dang stuff starts eating holes in your fish overnight. OUCH.

Put the Ochiba to sleep last night and gave it a shot of Amikacin. (.6cc). Took pictures of its sides. I will post those this weekend. It had veiny looking stuff popping out along its body.

Koi was laying on the bottom looking like dead most of the night. Poor Soragoi was being a momma to it, like deathwatch. Nudging it and staying by its side. By the time I turned out the lights, it was laying flat again. I fully expected to see it dead this morning when I got up.

This morning it was swimming around gulping air. Definetly is having some kind of problem with its swim bladder would be my guess from the gulping and rolling around.

[Jackie Ramo]

I'd be afraid to put them in the pond in case that bacteria spread and I had to deal with it for the rest of my life.

I'd keep the amonia binder in the water even if amonia wasn't registering. If they are that delicate a few bucks on binder as a preventative may save a lot of problems.

[Ian]

Hi Greg, sorry to hear the koi are not doing so well. I think you should take a look at the system these koi are in as being the source of the problem. Size does matter when the koi have come from ponds much bigger. They can spook and do all sorts of damage in injuries to themselves. What size pond was the koi in Japan bought in?
I truely believe in the other level of water quality after ammonia reads 0 and nitrites 0. The sign of either these two tests is a bad thing domestic or import. A reading of .25 ammonia and a ph of 8 is a big difference toxic wise than in ammonia .25 and a ph of 7. However having ammonia reading period is going to cause trouble as that really says there is a problem. Give any type of koi multiple stress for a period of time and you will be riding the edge.
I would not feed till they are out in the pond meanwhile pumping lots of air boiling the tank with air! and keeping the system waste free. Try to reduce any stress and fussing and get to the source of the problem with the water and you can turn it around.

[GregBickal]

I bought 10 pounds of Cloram-X. Ive been dosing daily. For some reason my filter wasen't able to keep up with the Ammonia. Ambient .25.

Ok, you say, filter is undersized right ? Wrong. The night before the Japanese koi came in, I had 20 koi in that tank (9-12"). Estimated 12 pounds of koi. Also had 150 fingerlings in that tank (3-6"). Move the 20 koi down to the basement, left the fingerlings. Tank is cycled for the load, all is good.

Next morning add the 10 Japanese koi (estimated 12 pounds). Within 24 hoursl, my fingerlings come down with cloudy slime coat, so start adding salt to 5%. Then the ammonia starts going .25

3 weeks go by, fingerlings all healed up looking good, but Japanese koi injuries that they got during shipping still not healing. Start adding Amquel+ to the water, and give a couple of the koi shots. Koi start healing. Reduce salt to 1.0 over water changes.

Removed fingerlings to new tank. Cycled that tank from scratch. Started registering 1ppm ammonia after 24 hours. Water change, Amquel, etc.

So, if the fingerlings were producing 1ppm ammonia in 24 hours and they were removed, then how come the pond with the Japanese koi still measures .25 ? Test kit is fine. The filter in the Japanese pond was handling the load of all those fish except for .25.

Turnover rate in the pond with the Japanese koi is 1200gph pump to 500 gallons of water. So turnover of every 30 minutes.

Doesnt make sence to me. I have estimated 200 pounds of koi in the basment tank (1200 gallons). With just slightly larger bio-filter than in the garage pond, and that system is 0 ammonia.

[Ian]

Big difference in the ammount of ammonia produced in stressed koi. Your home grown koi did not get a plane ride :D
Injured in shipping! That is another big stress point to overcome. Many stress points in the handling and moving and they don't go away overnight. Add a little water problem and it is trouble. These koi are weakened by the whole experience and need time in good comfortable water.

[GregBickal]

Here's how the koi looked when they arrived. The ochiba is the one on its side (lower right).

Even with the stress, how come my filter is at .25 ammonia even after I remove the fingerlings ? The fingerlings were producing 1ppm ammonia every 24 hours. So my filter should have easily been able to get rid of that .25 after the additional load was removed.

[Jackie Ramo]

Whatever the reason your filter is not dealing with the issue so you need a) less fish or b) more water.... whether in the tank or in the filters.

[GregBickal]

Just took pictures of the koi

[GregBickal]

This wound on the gill was on the koi when it got shipped to me. It was alot bigger, and it has been healing up.

[GregBickal]

This koi was suppost to be a female. But I think after looking at the anal opening, that it is male. Also, I think I can see the bumps on the leading ray of the peck.

[luke frisbee]

Greg,
My best guess is that the flter medium in the Jap tank died due to either opening the garage on cold mornings or the high salt content at certain times.....
I know you have been playing duck duck goose with all those koi so why don't you take half the bio filter media from the tank that is controling the Ammonia and put it in the jap tank filter.....put good clean sterilized filter media in the domestic tank as a rplacement...not the crap that isn't working.
Establish what happens overnight with the current set-up. check when you get home and do a water change. then check before work. then do the filter change and do another water change and see what the reading is in the Morning.See what happens every 12 hrs. either running the car in the garage or the cold has stopped the bio with the japs.
Wish i was there. Sounds like a fun one to figure out.

[Terri]

Even with the stress, how come my filter is at .25 ammonia even after I remove the fingerlings ? The fingerlings were producing 1ppm ammonia every 24 hours. So my filter should have easily been able to get rid of that .25 after the additional load was removed. Ok, back to basics here... you added 10 koi between 12" to 18" (who were stressed and injured) into a 500 gallon tank(not enough volume) with 150 fingerlings in residence... Greg, you know this is a b00-b00. On top of this you end up with sick little guys, salt is added... did you increase the air(O2) input?

Here's what I think... The original koi in that 500 gal tank were pretty healthy and you assumed your filter was adequate. You remove 20(9"-12") healthy koi and add 10(12"-18") who so happen to be stressing from travel(and the looks of it poor packaging) along with injuries to complicate this..Stressed koi = more ammonia... your fingerlings get hit, again 150 + 10 stressed koi = yet more ammonia. At this point your filter is totally undersized. You add salt, you're filter will take a small hit from this, and already not being able to handle the load.. you're still feeding right?...there's your ammonia reading. You remove the 150 small koi, you're still getting ammonia as you have a filter which cannot catch up at this point plus you are still feeding these stressed fish.

This has nothing to do with "Japanese" koi... They are not weaker and have a much lower tolerence level for injuries and water quality issues (if that were the case who would buy them?), they simply have gone through much more to get to your door than domestics in a short period of time. As you know, you put koi into less than ideal conditions and you will have issues to deal with, putting koi who have been through the ringer into less than prestine and you just asked for it. (that was meant in general not directed at anyone specific)

I'm sorry you are having problems Greg, and I sympathize. I understand you posting originally at NI about your Ochiba - but Mike nailed it, that is why you did not get the response you'd hoped for, do you understand why? I truely hope your Ochiba heals well and regains proper swim movement. I watched the vid and didn't see anything "abnormal" in it's movements.

I know this post is going to come off sounding "harsh", I apologize for that - I'm better at verbal conversation than written word :-) .

Add additional filtration, more air, up your water change schedule, and stop feeding until your ammonia reads "0". As soon as you can get them into more volume of water.

[Dayleen]

Ummm... hate to start something here but i have seen and heard JR, Peter Waddington, Tom Lansing and many others repeatedly say that the high class Japanese Koi are basicaly bred to the point that they are weaker.

They in fact do have a lower tolerance for poor water, cold water, crowding, stress...you name it. They are so interbred that they ARE geneticly weaker. That is a fact.They are beautiful fish....no doubt...but...they are not for beginners. They will not live long in the typical backyard pond. But then, the typical backyard ponder probably couldn't afford high class Japanese Koi anyway because if they could, they would probably know better about such things and have a high class pond to grow them in....problem solved.

I'm not advocating Greg keeping his Koi in such crowded conditions i was mearly telling him to give the fish time to recover. I had the same thing happen to me last year and it had nothing to do with anything i did, they arrived in that condition.

I sell probably 2000 Japanese Koi a year and rarely have problems with them (or the US Koi) but i also don't expect them to live in a cesspool either. The very high grade Japanese Koi is another breed, they are finicky, they cause me more grief than any other Koi and they are not for beginners and i won't sell them to beginners....they just aren't ready for the level of commitment these fish need.

Newly imported fish need a cycled, warm, quiet tank to rest in for at least a few weeks. They should never be bunking with other fish...they need to settle down. So other advise given to that affect was dead on.

[Busy B]

Your new koi were in a holding facility right before being shipped to you? How long was the plane ride? Was a plane right? From the plane to? Did you pick them up at the airport or did FedEx/UPS finish the last leg of the journey?

Were the ulcers the result of ammonia burns during transport?

[GregBickal]

I appreciate everyone comments and I do listen to the constructive critizism. Im not trying to be a "zac" by not listening to advice. The thing is, that I think that you guys are jumping to the "easy" conclusions without knowing all of the details.

We'll get into the whole story of the japanese koi and their shipment and subsequent disease outbreaks. I had been discussing this with Luke on the phone (until my wife got upset with me). I keep a very good log of my water parameters and actions. Here are some of the vairiables that have changed over the last couple months.

November 14Domestic Koi come inside for winter (to pre-established 500 gallon pond in garage. 20 koi (9-12"), 150 fingerlings (3-6")

January 13 Move 20 koi to basment pond in preparation for Japanese koi arrival.

January 14 The koi got shipped to Mark in November. He quarenteened and treated them, and shipped them to me January 14th. Now there was a problem, and the koi had to be at the shipper 2 hours before the flight (which ended up being the night before). So by the time the koi arrived to me, they had been in the boxes about 20 hours. Picture of the koi, you can see the Ochiba had the wound on its gill cover. The Soragoi had a wound on its side. The yamabuki had a wound on its tail. The other koi were ok.

January 15 Fingerlings come down with cloudy slime coat, and so does the smaller of the kohaku. Initial diagnosis is "a cold" from the opening of the garage door. Water tests 0 ammonia. Temp 63F. Did a 20% water change. Large Kohaku looses a scale when it jumps up on the side. Added two 300 watt heaters. Scrape and scope on microscope shows nothing.

January 19 Cloudy slime coat no better, decided to start salt treatment. 10% water change first. Then added 5lbs salt. Salt .1 Water tests 0ammonia. Temp 68F.

January 22 Added 10 pounds more salt. Now at .3, Ammonia 0

January 23 Added 10 pounds more salt. Now at .5, water tests .25 ammonia.

January 24 Cloudy slime coats still no better. Scrape and scope on microscope shows nothing. Decided to do a PP treatment. 2ppm for 1 hour. No Hydrogen peroxide needed. Filter not included in treatment. After treatment do 10% water change.

January 25 .25 ammonia. Started feeding medicated food (AES brand).

January 28 .25 ammonia. 10% water change. Salt .42

January 30 .25 ammonia. 10% water change. Added 5lb salt. Salt maintains at .42

February 4 .25 ammonia, .25 nitrite, 10% water change, salt .33 Domestic koi all looking good, no cloudy slime coats. Decided to start lowering salt level naturally through water changes. Trickle tower was full of slime coat. Rinsed filter. Added more filter media to bottom of filter

February 9 .25 ammonia, .25 nitrite, salt .33.

February 13 .25 ammonia, .25 nitrite, 10% water change, salt .25

February 17 .25 ammonia, .25 nitrite, salt .33

February 19 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 10% water change, salt .22

February 22 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, added 3lb salt, salt .30 Gave Ochiba 1cc shot of Neuflor. Yamabuki 1cc Neuflor.

February 25 .25 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 10% water change, salt .22

February 28 .125 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 20% water change. Move fingerlings to separate tank. Japanese koi now all by themselves.

March 1 .25 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 10% water change, salt .21

March 4 .25 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 10% water change, salt .12

March 5 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, salt .16, Added 8oz Amquel

March 7 Test kit no work for Ammonia, 10% water change. Added 8oz Amquel. 5 lb salt. Salt .26

March 9 Yamabuki .6cc Amikacin. Kohaku .7cc Amikacin.

March 10 Test kit no work for Ammonia, 10% water change. Added 8oz Amquel. 4lb salt. Salt .33. Yamabuki .6cc Amikacin. Kohaku .7cc Amikacin.

March 11Yamabuki and Kohaku wounds much improved. No more shots necessary (yes, breaking with the protocol).

March 13 Test kit no work for Ammonia, 10% water change. Added 8oz Amquel. No salt.

March 16 Test kit no work for Ammonia, 10% water change. Added 2 scoups Cloram-X.

March 17 1 scoup Cloram-x

March 18 1 scoup Cloram-x

March 19 10% water change. 1 scoup Cloram-x. Shiro Utsuri .5cc Amikacin.

March 20 Shiro Utsuri .5cc Amikacin.

March 21 Notice Ochiba swimming funny when I get home from work. 10% water change. 1 scoup Cloram-x. Shiro Utsuri .5cc Amikacin.

March 22 1 scoup Cloram-x . Shiro Utsuri improved, no more shots.

March 23 1 scoup Cloram-x

March 24 10% water change. 1 scoup Cloram-x. Ochiba .6cc Amikacin

March 25 1 scoup Cloram-x. Ochiba .6cc Amikacin.

68F Temperature and 8.5PH have remained constant throughout.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Now, some other things that I didnt write in specific dates in my log about the cloudy slime coats, my fish in the pond in the basement also contracted the cloudy slime coats about 2 weeks after I got the Japanese koi. My fault by not properly disinfecting the pump that I used to pump out the settling chambers. Salted those koi up to 5% and fed medicated food and they also got better within 2 weeks.

A koi dealer bought one domestic koi from me on the morning January 15 (day after Japanese koi arrived). That koi was in the same tank as the Japanese koi. he also got 11 koi from my basment pond. 2 days later all his koi were sick and getting ulcers.

So the cloudy slime coat problem was NOT a water quality issue in my eyes it was a bacteria problem.

Also, during the cycleing of the new tank with the fingerlings, they immediately broke out in ulcers within 48 hours as the ammonia started to climb. Added Amquel and the ulcers dissappeard over night. In my 6 years of cycleing new indoor tanks, I have NEVER had ulcers develop on koi during normal cycleing of a tank. I would say that the Japanese koi have brought in a strain of Aeremonas.

Ok guys, I know this is alot to digest. I have to work a little today, so I will be back to respond to questions.

[Ian]

Hi Dayleen, I do believe if you asked JR,Waddy and others of the high quality koi they are refering to, they don't get shipped to north America (the odd deep pocket serious hobbiest). They are talking the top out of 30,000 fry and is not your average size koi. These koi are closer to the 30"+ range and not your average culls. These koi they also refer to are grown out in mud ponds in thousands of gallons per koi for a number of years. Even in the winter holding facilities you will not find them in 500gallons and will have a constant supply of fresh water flowing through the system. Some of the tanks I have seen on trucks for transport from the mud ponds is at least 500gals.
So how does a domestic breeder pair up two Japanese koi and keep the inbreeding out? Or pairing up siblings that came fron the Japanese parents? Don't forget that these high end breeders in Japan have access to more bloodlines than any other domestic breeder, lets just say all the domestic breeders combined. If you get Koi Bito magazine you will read how the breeders are very aware of the bloodlines introduced to their stock and do have a better understanding than you or I will ever have. They don't spend a fortune on parent stocks to produce a weaker koi.
Culling koi is not an exersize of the survival of the fittest but rather picking out which koi is to live. Let the fry try to survive on their own and you will get the fittest and strongest koi, but maybe not the prettiest.
My Japanese koi need the same treatment as my domestics and I find there is no difference in health between them. I don't consider my Japanese koi to be of high quality in the rankings of Waddy,JR and Tom Lansing for that matter. In fact it is a domestic koi we have that shows first if something is not up to standards with the water.

Greg, is that how the box of fish really showed up? Was there any oxygen left in the bag when you got it or does it look void of air in the picture only?

[GregBickal]

Thats how the koi showed up, yes, bag was unopened when that picture was taken. I belive there was still air in the bags, I was in such a rush at that point to get them home (through the frustration the the dumb blondes at the airport that had me driving all over town to get the koi).

Oxygen. I do mesure that too, but not that often. Tetra test kit. My O2 levels normally ride at 5mg O2 per liter. During the 5% salting, I installed a drip plate about 18" over the pond, and had a 495gph pump pumping water through that constantly. Had the O2 up to 8mg. I have a double airstone in the pond, and my trickle tower bubbles into the water constantly.

[GregBickal]

I understand you posting originally at NI about your Ochiba - but Mike nailed it, that is why you did not get the response you'd hoped for, do you understand why?

So people think i'm a bad koi keeper, is that it ? So the problem that this Ochiba has right now is because of neglet on my part ?

[Jackie Ramo]

Greg, having been on the boards for a while reading about sick fish I will say that most times that fish are developing ulcers is overcrowding. Even when the water tests fine even perfect. The test only cover so little of what is really in the water.

Bacteria seem to bloom in these environments, whether the bacteria came in your case from Japan or just thrived during the short time the fingerlings and imports were together, maybe even mutated, there is a lot about the bugs we don't know.

I don't think you are negligent. I think like many you walk close to the edge and this time, the edge crumbled a bit under you.

I see the recommended water changes being done, but to me those amounts are for normal stocked ponds or tanks, not ones with a high fish load. These IMO need more changes and more often. You are doing about 20% a week doing it in two loads. I'd be looking at 2 20% changes at a minimum with that level of fish load.

[Terri]

Greg, you read NI, you know the posters there, the response you got would be typical for anyone who stated similar circumstances as you did... and it's the 500 gallon QT that makes the case for them. This is not how "they" would have handled it. Please don't take offense to that... it's just the way it is. Don't forget, the majority at NI recommend 1000 gallons per koi as minimum.

No I do not think you are a bad koi keeper. For the many variables you had to deal with from the get-go, your system was bound for troubles with that fish load... If those koi had arrived in good shape I doubt any of this would have happened to the extent it has.

We received a shipment 2 years ago, they spent near 40hrs in shipping bags due to happenstance... anyways, all those koi except or 6 were put into ponds over 1000 gallons. The 6 went into a 500 gallon mature system... we lost 4 of those six but did not loose one koi out of the many that were placed into the 1000+ gal ponds. Those in the larger volumes bounced back from their journey in 2-3 days, the 6 in the 500 gallon just didn't seem to be able to cope and settle in. The remaining 2 koi we brought out to the ponds and within 2-3 days were back on track... if we'd have left them in that QT they would most likely have gone the way of their fishmates.

Last year we shipped in 100 koi, they got lost in Atlanta and cooked in the bags for a while... 27hrs later they were all looking rough - ammonia burn and milky slime coats. Placed them into a 2200 gallon tank with 200 other koi, while confirming a costia outbreak with the new fish. We lost 3 of those 100 and none of the resident koi. Costia was treated with salt to 0.6% over 2 weeks and daily water changes(15%) + high O2 through that time frame.

So what I'm trying to say here is that it's volume that counts to their comfort and recoupe time. I know what overstocking can be like, it's work! Any water quality issues with over stocked ponds/tanks is only amplified 10fold to the koi - stressed fish feed off eachother's stress level... making things worse.

[GregBickal]

Thanks guys. I do appreciate the continued feedback. I realize im treading a fine line this year. I never expected to go to Japan in October, and certainly didnt expect to bring home 10 koi (I had only planned on 4). Hey, you only live once. If I knew then what a PITA pure Japanese koi were, I would have had Mark hold them and ship them to me in the spring when they could have gone right outdoors.

As far as the crowding situation, this is normal for overwintering indoors. The Japanese do it. How many koi do they keep in their indoor tanks per gallon. Ive been there, ive seen the stocking rates first hand. Temps just high enough so the koi's immune system is active, but cool enough that the koi don't need to eat as much.

Normally in the winter, I do a 10% every week (just dumping the settling chamber) and a 20% water change every other week. When I started having these problems, I started doing a 20% a week. Luke had told me that 20% was to much of a shock, he said to do 10% daily. Schedule wise, I am just not able to do that, so I started doing 10% every 3 days.

Koi should be able to go outside in about two weeks. 20,000 gallons. The 12 Japanese koi I own are going to go outside first, and the rest of the koi I own are going to be held indoors until the buyers pick them up.

Then construction will begin on my new winter koi house. 6,000 gallons. Next winter I will be better prepared.

[Jackie Ramo]

I think the stress of water changes depends on how they are done. Mine are reasonbly stressful as I have to put a sump pump into the pond and the fish hate the noise it makes. If you can drain out of the settlement chamber and just add water... they should only be happy with the water change IMO. Often water changes also get the fish used to the them happening so it stopped being stressful.

Considering the ulcers etc., I'd up the amount of water changes.

Yeah, I wasn't expecting my added fish load either nor did I think how much those baby butterflies would really grow.

[Dayleen]

Ian ...you got what i meant about high class Koi....not the regular everyday Japanese koi but the very expensive siblings. I bring in about a dozen of these ultra koi a year and they are a pain in the rear...not so much since learning what they need.... but....

They don't tolerate crowding , as you say they are used to a lot of space...true. They need pristine conditions and require extra attention...something that comes with years of keep koi, you evolve...you learn...you appreciate. Not something the beginner can fully understand until you have killed plenty of koi and learned from your mistakes...ultimately, that's how we all learn our lessons ...sad but true...been there, done that.

When i made the statement about high class koi it was meant as a generalization about how the more expensive they are, the more bad things happen to them....never fails, it's always the most expensive (or your favorite) that dies. So...what Greg's own fish were used to and what these new fish were used to (or would tolerate) are 2 different things and he should forget about what worked with the old ones and give the new ones what they need....space, time and perfect warm water.

Remember all the discussion on this very subject on whether you can breed for looks and also have strong fish. Consensus was that they breed for looks and not longevity. They breed to Magoi to bring strength and stability into the lines that have been weakened by overbreeding and line breeding. Your right that they know more than you or i on this and probably many more subjects.....i am not a breeder and would never be arrogant enough to even consider myself one but i didn't just fall of the turnip truck either....this isn't my first day having koi....and God willing, not my last. ;)

[GregBickal]

Ive definetly learned my lesson the hard way. Makes me re-think my breeding plans. I was going to only breed pure Japanese, but now Im thinking of includings some of my mutt females. Specifically the big orange ogon female.

When my domestic koi loose a scale to say spawning or jumping, ive never had it get inflamed into this nasty looking red sore. They like to jump the first night in new water as we all know. The Kohaku jumped, and lost a scale, and it became red and infected. The Shiro Utsuri jumped, and lost a scale, and it became red and infected. The Chagoi jumped, lost a 2 scales and NEITHER spots became infected. What does that tell me about the strenght of the koi ?

My domestic koi have jumped lots of times. Ive never ever seen this type of inflamed scale. Nor have I ever seen these type of Aeromonas ulcers before.

I will be prepared in the future.

[GregBickal]

Ok, so getting back on topic. What is the problem with this Ochiba ?

I think that it has suffered physical damage during some kind of jump. The brusing vein marks up the tail leads me to this (like it had a hard smack on the side of the deck board). I also think that the rear lobe of its swim bladder was also damage in this bump.

It is mostly upside down now. Occasionaly turns upright and tries to swim.

[Jackie Ramo]

Greg, once you breed those imports the fry become domestic :lol: Would be interesting to see if the fry from the imports alone have the same problems as the parents after being raised in different circumstances.

[Busy B]

But how do you heal a damaged swim bladder?

And why is a 20 percent water change too much of a shock?

[GregBickal]

I was even thinking of trying an experiment of breeding a wild female carp from the river with some of the Japanese males. Just to see what happens.

If these koi are so inbreed that is causing weakness, then breeding Japanese koi to Japanse koi should produce the same problem.

[Jackie Ramo]

But it also my feeling that these fish are not exposed to the same environment as pond fish are. So they have no immune system to fight anything off.

[Dayleen]

Greg, that is why the reason for breeding of the Magoi to the Nishikigoi...strength, size, stability. I wish breeding koi was as easy as just putting your favorite fish together. Unfortunately they don't breed very true to the parent....they do...but...there are so many culls to do to find those perfect koi...it's a lot of work, time and knowledge.

I say give it a shot...see what you get but honestly, don't expect to much. It could take you years of breeding different pairs to find the coupling that works best. That's where the Japanese breeder has the edge, they know the lines and they know them a long way back and they keep good record on what they have put together and they are brutal in the culling...you have to be.

For me that would be the hardest part because i think everything should have it's chance....clearly i wouldn't make a good fish farmer...LOL

Give your new guys a chance to settle down before deciding that they are weaker. All that they have been through isn't really a good judge of that. You may find like so many people that they require more attention than your domestics but if they weren't worth the trouble they wouldn't be so popular.

I have some very nice Japanese koi that have never caused a problem but honestly, i treat them like they have the plague when i get them in. They get put into large systems that are fully cycled, warm, salty and the biggest thing....i make sure no one bothers them for at leat 10 days...they are too jumpy. When we walk past them we always talk to them so not to surprise them and we don't net them unless absolutely nesessary. After 3 weeks they are in tip top shape and ready to go.....i think the quiet is the key but that's my opinion.

Try breeding them...what the heck...if nothing else you'll learn a lot. It's fun to watch them grow and mature even if they are mutts.

[Terri]

Greg, how 'bout an update on the Ochiba? [please and thanks you]

:)

[GregBickal]

This Ochiba has more lives than a Cat. Its currently floating upside down. Just breathing. Every once and awhile it will attempt to flip over, and swim. Ends up just flopping all over the place uncontrolably (like a rocketship with one thruster)

I quit feeding the koi as you suggested and got the ammonia to 0 without chemicals. Been 0 for about a week now. Still doing 10% water changes every 3 days.

Noticed about 2 days ago, one of the other koi holding one of its pec fins close. Then yesterday another. So I did another scrape and scope and found gill flukes. Full thread is over at Newts. Do you want me to re-post the info here and pictures ?

Did a PP treatment last night and have Supraverm on order. I dont think this was the problem with the Ochiba tho. The warmer temps must have caused some kind of eggs to hatch and bring out these flukes.

[Jackie Ramo]

Greg, it would be great if you could post the information about the Ochiba here. Chance for more folks to learn. Thanks.

It seems its one thing or another with these darn fish.

[GregBickal]

Here's pictures of the flukes that I found. Im not sure what kind the skinny long one is. The short fat one should be a gill fluke.

I used PP at 3/4tsp to 500 gallons. It lasted 2 hours. Scraped for flukes after that and still found one on the slide (highly agitated). Were there is one there is more, so decided to use the Supraverm instead. If I would have used a whole tsp of PP, mabye it would have done the trick. I hate redosing PP because I dont want to damage the koi.\

Sorry the pictures are out of order. I try and try to change them around but it wouldnt let me. Dang web anyway.

[Jackie Ramo]

Greg, does the wormlook like this one:

http://microscopy-uk.org.uk/index.html?http://microscopy-uk.org.uk/pond/

[GregBickal]

Yes, it looks like a Nematode. Ive been looking at that on some other websites.

[Jackie Ramo]

The pics you posted were great examples of flukes. I knew I had seen that worm before but it took me a while to find it. The supraverm should kill it as well.

[Terri]

Good to hear the waterQ is now in check.

Did you end up finding a lab to do tests? Is the Ochiba floating at the surface upside down? Poor thing :(

I haven't seen the thread at Newts, haven't had much time this past week or so for the boards... sucks about the "nasties",... nematodes can also be internal, might want to look into that with the Ochiba. I'm not sure the Supaverm will take care of those internally but Metro will.

[GregBickal]

Rick at koivet sent this link:
http://www.dpd.cdc.gov/DPDX/HTML/Hookworm.asp?body=Frames/G-L/Hookworm/body_Hookworm_mic1.htm

Could be a hookworm...

Whats Metro ?

[Terri]

http://www.aquasource.org/CMS/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=128&page=1 <--Metro

...could also be round worm species..? There are a few baddies that can infest internally, generally they are found in the intestinal tract but one or two enjoy the swimbladder, and a few that like brain food. Usually you see wasting away or bloating with internal worm like creatures... there are even those that live under the skin at a certain stage and "pop" out leaving a nasty hole about the size of a pinhead(not normally found on carp though)... but anyways ... Metro will kill flukes too.

[GregBickal]

gotcha. Thanks.

[Jackie Ramo]

Greg, how is the Ochiba doing?

[GregBickal]

Still alive, still doing the belly float. :(

[Jackie Ramo]

It sure is a fighter. What treatments are you doing now?

[GregBickal]

A fighter indeed. Its hard to watch it suffer every day.

Treated with Supaverm for flukes on Saturday. 3% salt. I did the 5 shot Amikacin regimin awhile back. It wont eat, Ive tried holding food, dangling food, sinking food. So my medicaited food is no good.

I found a vet who could do x-rays for about $65 (including office visit). Its not a fish vet tho.

Im open to ideas.

[Jackie Ramo]

Not sure I have any that haven't been tried. Where is she now? What is her temp?Can she be put in her own tank and strapped upright to see if she can find her balance again. I wouldn't eat upside down either.

[Terri]

How far are you willing to go Greg?

A vet is a vet. Get the x-rays.. email REC for protocal. Make sure the vet gives you the film, or copies of it - after all that is what you are paying for.

This baby needs TLC, can you move it, heat and large amounts of O2 and salt(0.3%)..? Any bloating? Distended belly? Does it still have that red streaking in the skin?

[GregBickal]

How far are you willing to go Greg?
This is my favorite and most costly koi from Japan, however, Im not emotionally attached to it at this point. If I can correct its problem with medications that aren't too expensive, then I will do that and proper environment. I would not get surgery on it for sure.



A vet is a vet. Get the x-rays.. email REC for protocal. Make sure the vet gives you the film, or copies of it - after all that is what you are paying for.

I have consulted with Rec on the x-rays. The vet who would do it, is about 45 minutes away, so I was waiting to see if the koi got better without a stressful trip. Im also wondering if the x-ray is going to tell me anything useful.

This baby needs TLC, can you move it, heat and large amounts of O2 and salt(0.3%)..? Any bloating? Distended belly? Does it still have that red streaking in the skin?

Other koi will be going outside this weekend, this koi will then have the tank all to itself. Salt is already 0.3%. O2 is 8ppm. No bloating. No Distended belly. Yes, the red streaking is still there. I will try to post a new movie. As for temperature, I dont have a good way to get that up with that volume of water. I will have to think of some ways to do that.

[Terri]

500 gallon tank right? Three 350w aquarium heaters will maintain that volume, put them in the tank at different locations(not near the water return),.. and if you have any, cover a majority of the tank with poly 6mil plastic.

You won't know if the x-ray will tell you anything unless you get it done ;-) If there is fluid in the swim bladder at least you can try and treat.

[GregBickal]

Dummy me, didnt put any insulation between the cement floor and the tank. Any heat is lost right through the ground. Im not sure that even 3 heaters would be enough.

[GregBickal]

Ok, thought I would give you an update (before you had to ask) :grin:

All the other koi are outside now, so the Ochiba is there with only a 9" domestic Ki Utsuri to keep it company.

Ochiba is still alive. Floating upside down at the bottom of the pond now. Hopefully that is a good thing.

The Supa Verm 10 day treatment is up, so I did a 10% water change last night. Will do another 10% tonight. Temp in the tank is 72F.

Going to scrape and scope it again tonight also.

[Jackie Ramo]

I'm amazed the fish is still hanging in although I'm not sure being upside down on the bottom is better than being upside down on the top. Can you string some harness up to hold her right side up? I know folks do this with goldies all the time. She certainly needs to be warmer.

[GregBickal]

The fish freaks out anytime you get near and goes bonkers. I didnt want to risk the fish getting damaged further with a harness.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well so she's showing lots of life then :frisbee: So do you think she is better or the same? I realize damage is something to be avoided but upside down fish win no awards and seldom live long. Grasping at straws here but what about super gluing a rock to her belly so it holds her upright. again something I've read done with goldfish... By the time the rock falls off in a few days the fish apparently has its balance again.

[Terri]

Read about the spawning at Newt's... as well as the costia issue. No trip to the vet's planned for the Ochiba?

[Terri]

Jackie please tell me you're kidding....... :roll:

[Jackie Ramo]

Ummm no, I've read about people doing this for goldfish to help them regain their balance... never done it myself but from what I've read it was successful more often than not. Doesn't Doc J do a surgery where he implants a stone to keep them belly down?

[GregBickal]

The ochiba is slowly starving to death. I suppose I should name it Terri. :( Tail is really looking thin now.

[Terri]

Greg, you can feed this koi, it requires a tube down to the gut and forcing the food into it's stomach with a syringe. But that is up to you.

You could right the koi as Jackie suggests but there are draw-backs, such as chaffing the skin around the pec's and belly from the harness, possible causing "bed-sores" for a lack of a better term. So, again that's up to you.(Jackie, I've heard/seen this too... not something I personally would do, but that's me)

You still corresponding with REC Greg? What comments has he made? Did he pass this along to Viki and DocJ? Still no x-rays done?

Name the Ochiba "Terri", or just name it period? I'd be flattered but then again... ;-)

I'm really sorry this Ochiba is doing so badly Greg... :( it's a nice koi. Wish I had a magic cure for you.

[Jackie Ramo]

Terri, I guess my point is, I've never done this stuff either but I've never had a fish in dire straights as Greg does. At this point one must do something more than wring their hands. I'd be interested in REC's input.

[GregBickal]

Sorry, I meant Terri as in Terri Schivo. !wow!

Im am no longer corresponding with Rec or Doc. I can get x-rays, but I feel its not worth the expence, and the hassle to go do so.

Its nice that the koi keeps holding on, but Im really ready for it to let go. My days of staying up till 3am in the morning watching vigal over a dying koi are long past. Its obvious to me that its just not going to get better. Water quality couldnt get any better (other than raising the temp to the lower 80's)

Im almost ready to get the Clove Oil out and put it out of its mysery. I'll try to post new pictures of it.

[Terri]

Ya gotta do what you feel best Greg...

[GregBickal]

Well, your weekly update on the Ochiba. Its not floating upside down anymore. Its laying rightside up at the bottom. I keep throwing in pellets, both sinking and floating but I never see it eat any.

Its very skinny, lost alot of muscle mass. It still cant swim right. Tail still paralyzed.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well being rightside up is an improvement.... right? try some of those brine shrimp, or bits of regular shrimp with a bit of garlic. They can be force fed, I was going to do that to Tweet one year when he was dying but fortunately for me and him, he started eating on his own. It was only one or two pellets at a time. He hates shrimp so that would not work.

[Terri]

Now there's some good news Greg :-) keep up the TLC.

[GregBickal]

I'll try the force feeding with shrimp.

[Jackie Ramo]

Well, how is the fish???

[GregBickal]

Well, I put the Ochiba out of its mysery Saturday :( . Poor thing has starved down to skin and bones. Bottom of the fish was covered in sores from laying on the bottom so much.

Autopsy showed a big lump in the backbone in one of the vertebrea disks. Slowly disected the disks and the spinal cord was severed. Sorry I didnt take any pictures. It was pretty messy, and I was by myself.

Thanks to everyone for all theyre help and support through this entire ordeal. It has been a hard thing to watch, and a tough lesson to learn, specially on such a beautiful koi. I think that my final prognosis is that the koi broke its back when it jumped and fell on the Cement.

Im sorry Ochiba, this koi keeper failed you.

[Jackie Ramo]

Greg I am sorry that it came to this. Still lessons learned will benefit the next fish. Where was the break in the back? higher may have killed it instantly and lower and it may have recovered.

[GregBickal]

It was around the rear of the dorsal fin.

[Terri]

:( Sorry Greg... even with the short time you had the Ochiba it still must be hard to lose.
There are good days and bad days...

[Busy B]

Sorry Greg...

[GregBickal]

Im just glad that I didnt just buy one nice koi when I went to Japan. It would be tougher loosing the only one. At least I have 9 others.

I'm still struggling with the rest of the koi (even now that their outside). Lots of sores and post spawning stress. My Karasu went over the waterfalls and was stuck in the stream. Ive had that happen before with no ill effects. Well, not any more, now it has sores, and green fungus growing on it. I couldnt see it to catch it, the water is still a little green. The proform treatment I did a few weeks back has really done some strange things to my pond, even after water changes and a PP treatment. 1/3rd the fish load that I normally carry outside, so I know its not my pond.

Weather is still not normal, so Im blaming it on that right now.

[Jackie Ramo]

Sounds like the fish has sap... needs to be treated before it gets too deep.

i've used proform C as directed and never had a problem with it. What's 'wierd' with the pond? Mine is finally warming up and the string algae is dying back a bit. Water is clear most of the fish are happy. There's always one this time of year. Scraped him this morning but found nada.Aalt bath at 0.7, removed some algae from his gills and he's up from the bottom but hasn't eaten as yet.

[GregBickal]

Whats the treatment for Sap ? If I can see the fish to catch it. Karasu in 6' deep green water large pond, you get the drift. For my fish to have Sap this time of year is unheard of. Thats usually a spring thaw issue when the water is 50F (around here anyway is usually the only time ive ever seen it). Never on any of my fish. Of course, that was before the Jap koi brought in the lovely Aremonas bacteria...

This freaky cold warm cold weather has the pond in a weird state of clarity. It was crystal clear, then went light green, then started clearing up, then went light green again. Water warms up for a couple days then drops back down. Its like the fish are getting subjected to some serious shifts in temperature and water readings. Weather is way cool for this time of year. The multiple spawnings so back to back are taking their toll also. Normally the water warms up and never cools down, so they get one spawning in late May, and thats it. Poor koi are getting put through the ringer.

Scraping of the koi says the costia and other paracites are gone.

[Jackie Ramo]

We're having similar weather but lucky for me no spawn as yet!! Although I must admit to hoping it happens soon as GG looks to explode and is heavier on one side than the other. Can't be pleasant.

[GregBickal]

My yellow doitsu had so many eggs, that now shes looking very skinny and mis-shapen. Almost gaunt. Im worried they will get sick this way.

[Jackie Ramo]

:frisbee: Fine pair we are both with opposite problems