another comparison in growth & development

[Terri]

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r256/TJcanada/Koi%20Photos/Asagi-louise-1.jpg
Asagi,... one of my fav varieties.

This asagi is from Quality Koi Co. I'll let Louise fill in the rest of the details, her baby after all.

I think this is a nice example of what to look for in nissai when choosing asagi. Lovely how the head is clearing up. I like the way the colour in fins is tightening up. The definition of the reticulation along the back is coming along at a good pace. Just a little dark at the tail stop..?? not sure what to make of that over time.

[Louise Laurent]

Hi:

She is 18 inches long. Born in 2005, sent to me in August 2007 at 11 inches. I was so nervous I took only one pic and returned her to the pool. I am a louzy photographer. I see that the pic shows her much darker than she really is. She is soft... Looks har on that pic...

Come on, what do you think... After we will comment. right now, I need contacts off, a glass of wine and a break...

LL

PS: I need an avatar!!! :yup:

[flywheel]

The hi is well balanced and a nice amount of it on the head, pecs, and dorsal to really make this an eye catching koi, and as Terri pointed out the head is clearing up very nicely. Moving down to her tail stop it's getting into the shadows so it is hard to say for sure but it does look a little darker, still a very nice asagi. Better than both of mine, that's for certain.

[Koidaddy]

Very nice Asagi, Louise... I think I have it's sibling in my pond, unfortunately, no pictures at the moment, but will be fun to compare when I do (hopefully our snow will melt by September). :banghead:

BTW, Kindly update us on your pond specs - I'm assumming it must be pretty big as you seem to put on growth rather quickly (fish that is).

KD

[marla]

I do like the look and soooooo want to get an asagi. It's the scaleing color on the body and contrasting red/orange that draws me to them I had always heard that the head should have no color, would that include the sides of the head like Louise's? Well I like the color on the sides, I personaly don't mind a small amount of color on the top like small tancho, I know it's not right, but I'm not in for show, I buy for what I like.

[Louise Laurent]

I read my post back and the last pic is of her at 18 inches taken last week, just to clear confiusion. Now I wish I had taken more angles and all but that is all I have right now.

So that is my first asagi and I am learning as I go. I had hopes that she would grow and keep her pale beni and blue low profile. So far she is doing that. She grew 7 inches since August.

I know that asagis prefer soft water. Mine is soft and that should keep any shimis and hard colors away. I know the bloodlines influence the amount of red and the color of the blue. This one is Narumi, so it will be paler than the Konjo. It has less blue pigments than the Konjo.

The motoaka on the pecs is receeding. Which is according to the prediction that fully red pecs at tosai tend to receede as the koi ages.

When selecting an asagi, you should be looking with a koi with little red at the base of the flancks, a white band separating the blue on the back from the red on the belly should run from behind the operculum to the caudal fin. You can see that in the first pic. The larger white portion, the less red later.

Then look for missing scales, jumbled scales, random gin rin scales and search for evenness in coloration of blue, as pale as possible. Mine has a darker odome area, hope it will clear. There should be about 5 or 6 even rows of blue scales on each side of the dorsal fin. Hi should be present at the base of the dorsal fin. Random spots of hi in the blue netting is a fault.

Hi at the tail joint is accepted even desired. Hi on the eyes is accepted in asagis. The head should be clear of spots and when tosai, we see the skull and it should disappear when it grows. As the years go by, the shiro on the head thickens and covers the skull. No hi on the head is accepted. Hi on the cheeks is very important and too much is not good. Nice symetrical hi is desired.

For the net pattern: as the koi grows the netting is going to get more defined. You want all this to happen slowly, growth being the main objective before the colors mature.

As for comformation, the asagi should have a pointy head and elongated body. No chagoi look please...

The leader in breeing asagis today is Hosokai Koi Farm. Their koi grow to 90 cms.

Dick Benbow is a leader with his knowledge of asagis.

Well, that all I am thinking of now.

Louise

[carcha koi]

Nice balance and body shape. The hi has come out very nice. Job well done.

[Jackie Ramo]

Louise she is a beauty. You are so right about slow being the key, so many want it all and want it now, that's fine for somethings but for fish you need patience.

Do you never feed growth or colour enhanced foods.

[Louise Laurent]

Yes, certain varieties grow faster than others. I am not forcing anything. I even see asagis advertized at 50 cm at nisai but the key is to allow growth before finishing. How many times do I get comments that the colors are not true on my koi, this and that... the longer time the koi takes to finish, the longer it is going to take before it goes downhill.

You can only provide the best environment to the fish, offer the best water, food... Genetics in the end will prevail. So, if the asagi is meant to be a good one, that will be great.

Cheers,

Louise

[Jackie Ramo]

I also think all that rushed growth damages the fish later and they don't live as long. My oldest fish is 17 years, not the oldest around but I expect to have him (sadly) for years to come

[Ian]

Seven inches since August is very good growth indoors! You know your water is right when.....your koi grow looking good...
The eyes have red on them as a baby but not on cheaks,gill plates. With time the red has come up on the face. I wounder if this is a way to tell if the red will come up past the eyes? An Asagi with white eye lids as a baby would tell you that the red will be less at the head? Thinking out loud no statements here...

[Louise Laurent]

Ian, that is behond my knowledge really...

As far as growth rate Jackie, that fish was born in 2005, so that would make it a sansai this summer, so 18 inches (45 cms) at that age is not a extraordinary growth, just right. She was just catching up.

I get what you are saying and I agree. A guy who does spectacular growth is Sakai of Hiroshima. He gets a kohaku finished at 6 years old and 90 cms or more. That is because he uses extra warm water year round, uses pure oxygen to stimulate the growth and feeds 8 times a day. So, his fish have won GC in Japan 8 times in the last 10 years, people are mesmorized by his growth rates, but the kicker is that of those winners many are going downhill already and do not have the bone strenght to support these massive bodies. I read it on another board... from respected judges.

Some breeders in Japan are not getting into the growth rat race, they believe in normal cycles and rest for the winter. Ultimately they will prevail. Their fish finish at 8 and sometimes 10 years old. Still the same size at winning but these fish stay beautiful longer.

My take on this growth issue is that in the first 4 years of life, I want to give the best opportunity for these fish to grow. Starting this year, my big girls are getting their winter. No more winter indoors for them. None of my fish is finished at 4 years old, their bodies are still growing, so hopefully I have the right the combination to keep them long time. They are not overfed but they receive a variety of fruits, veggies, krill, and high quality food. I add clay 2 times a week and the filtration is oversized, I make water changes of 25% every week. I am a test freak, watch my parameters every day and I am crossing my fingers because so far, that is working for me.

Anyway, I totally agree with you on this issue.

Louise

[Koidaddy]

Louise, How many gallons are you operating?

KD

[Louise Laurent]

We are upgrading to a bigger pool in a couple of months but right now I only have 2000 gallons indoors. Plus 2 quarantine stations of 250 g each. All filtration is over the top to accomodate my fish. Outside I have a 2800 g pond. In a couple of months the fish indoors are going to go in a 10 x 16 x 4 pool.

The 10 big girls are going outside as we have decided not to move after all. So the pond will be upgraded and redone for better protection and winterization.

So, I will feel better about their quarters. Right now I am holding my breath...


you see I am tight right now...

louise

[carcha koi]

Cool, Can't wait to see the project as it comes along.

[Jackie Ramo]

Yes, Louise please post those construction pics as you work.

There are a few self proclaimed guru's on the net who are encouraging this grow quick and damn the consquences attitude. Yet they scream it is all about the fish... I don't think so, I think it may be that old addage, size does matter !rofl

[shikkaba]

Ooo. Koi eating fruit and veggies. Very interesting. What does that do for them that the koi food doesn't?

Your koi sound really impressive. Do you have any pictures somewhere?

Ian, that is behond my knowledge really...

As far as growth rate Jackie, that fish was born in 2005, so that would make it a sansai this summer, so 18 inches (45 cms) at that age is not a extraordinary growth, just right. She was just catching up.

I get what you are saying and I agree. A guy who does spectacular growth is Sakai of Hiroshima. He gets a kohaku finished at 6 years old and 90 cms or more. That is because he uses extra warm water year round, uses pure oxygen to stimulate the growth and feeds 8 times a day. So, his fish have won GC in Japan 8 times in the last 10 years, people are mesmorized by his growth rates, but the kicker is that of those winners many are going downhill already and do not have the bone strenght to support these massive bodies. I read it on another board... from respected judges.

Some breeders in Japan are not getting into the growth rat race, they believe in normal cycles and rest for the winter. Ultimately they will prevail. Their fish finish at 8 and sometimes 10 years old. Still the same size at winning but these fish stay beautiful longer.

My take on this growth issue is that in the first 4 years of life, I want to give the best opportunity for these fish to grow. Starting this year, my big girls are getting their winter. No more winter indoors for them. None of my fish is finished at 4 years old, their bodies are still growing, so hopefully I have the right the combination to keep them long time. They are not overfed but they receive a variety of fruits, veggies, krill, and high quality food. I add clay 2 times a week and the filtration is oversized, I make water changes of 25% every week. I am a test freak, watch my parameters every day and I am crossing my fingers because so far, that is working for me.

Anyway, I totally agree with you on this issue.

Louise

[Marg]

Hi Louise,
I would love to learn about Koi colouration and classification. Is there a book you would recommend for a newbie? I certainly don't have show Koi but would like more information about the different clours and how the fish change as they grow.
Maybe Santa can put one under the tree.
Marg in Rockwood

[philly]

Hi Marg,

Welcome. I'm also new here, how big is your pond and what depth also what part of Ontario is Rockwood in ? as for books there was a few for sale in the forum as i was browsing through at a very good price can't remember where but if i see the books again will let you know.

Phil.

[Marg]

Hi Phil,
Winter is upon us eh? Everything is covered in a THICK blanket of snow. Rockwood is situated around Highway 7 and Guelph Line, between Georgetown and Guelph. (Snowbelt area)

I started digging my pond this past May and with each rainfall (which softened the ground),it grew and grew till I was 22' long and 17' wide with the deepest part getting down to three feet. Then the rain stopped. :hot: When my husband came home from work each day, I would then help him build our deck. I had no more energy! (Now I wish I had watered and dug at least another foot deeper) But as they say,you live in ROCKwood!

My yard has a 3' slope from the back fence towards the new deck and the new patio that we put in after. So what I dug out of the pond I piled around the outside of the pond to raise the lower side (hillside remember) and the ends. The first shelf on the low side is actually the lawn. On the upper side, I also have about a 10' x4' stream (upper pond) from the biofalls/waterfall making another falls about 6 feet wide falling into the lower pond across one of the long sides closer to the end.

We built a layered rock wall around the low side and filled in between that and the ground lining the wall of the pond. The liner covers all of that to the top layer of the rock wall. This top layer holds the liner in place and becomes an 18" rock bench for sitting on to feed the fish.

It has turned out well and we have enjoyed it all. :yup:

How about you? Where in Mississauga are you located? Tell me about your pond. How old is your pond? Pictures are good. Did you leave your pump going or is it shut down like mine?

I hope we have a good winter for our fish.
Marg

[philly]

Very nice pond like the finishing touch on the waterfall, that koi looks like it's part butterfly the fins seems a little longer than normal and is that a lotus I see to the right in the pond ? Would have been nice if you could have gone a little more deeper on your pond but looks great with the plants in and around the pond you would think it has been there for years.

I live near Erin Mills Town Center at Eglinton & Winsstonchurchill Blvd, no snow as yet the storm must have bypassed us last night. The pond is a little over 8 years old but didn't get most of the work completed till this year still have a few things more to do, it's an ongoing project always something to add on after looking at others peoples ponds, the MRS. said that I always wait till the very last minute to do anything, the pumps, only one is turned off the other one is always on will see how it works out, as this is the 1 st year the bottom drain won`t be shut down tired of the stinky smell at start up in the spring time, you can check my pond out under Koi Pond Construction - My Pond ¨{ Philly Pond } .

Phil.

[Marg]

Very nice pond like the finishing touch on the waterfall, that koi looks like it's part butterfly the fins seems a little longer than normal and is that a lotus I see to the right in the pond ? Would have been nice if you could have gone a little more deeper on your pond but looks great with the plants in and around the pond you would think it has been there for years.

I live near Erin Mills Town Center at Eglinton & Winsstonchurchill Blvd, no snow as yet the storm must have bypassed us last night. The pond is a little over 8 years old but didn't get most of the work completed till this year still have a few things more to do, it's an ongoing project always something to add on after looking at others peoples ponds, the MRS. said that I always wait till the very last minute to do anything, the pumps, only one is turned off the other one is always on will see how it works out, as this is the 1 st year the bottom drain won`t be shut down tired of the stinky smell at start up in the spring time, you can check my pond out under Koi Pond Construction - My Pond ¨{ Philly Pond } .

Phil.
Hi Phil.
I was told it was a butterfly. As for the long fins...that is why my grand daughter chose it. It was one of the first that I bought.
Yes it is a Lotus. The fellow at the garden center said I really should have one. It grew well but didn't flower this year. I hope it makes it and maybe blooms next year. This whole year will be firsts for me.
Stinky Spring smell....something I have to look forward to? I have cleaned out all the extra plant stems and leaves before shut down. The skimmer and biofalls are clean too. Where will the smell come from? Did I miss something? Or is it just from the fish over the winter?

:eek:
I thought I was looking forward to Spring.
Marg

[Jackie Ramo]

Marg I really like the raised sides nice for sitting to enjoy the fish. When my knees are tired I wish mine was raised.

[philly]

Marg,

You have done all the work that's required of your pond.
I have a bottom drain which the water is drawn from the bottom of the pond which if left on can chill the water as it mixes, when shut off the water in the pipes sits and does not flow therefore gets stagnated really nasty stuff so in the spring the pipes has to be pumped out to waste in order that whatever have settled in the pond and filters from being shut down over the winter does not return to the pond and gets flushed out, not to confuse you I have raised the bottom drain intake pipe up about 4' from the bottom so the water does not chill and the return pipe flows over the bubble rap I installed under they waterfall, so the water flowing down the fall does not disturb the water below the pond. Since there are so many new members it would be nice to have some time to visit their ponds next summer, it will be very interesting as no two ponds are alike and the ideas we all gather would benefit us all in some way or another especially landscaping which i haven't a clue what to do yet.

[Marg]

Yes it is nice to have a raised side to sit on. This was to keep the pond higher than the lowest area of the yard, couldn't get much deeper ( I didn't think at the time), and to make a stopping point for my 5 grandkids under 6. The youngest is 18 months. The rule is sit or kneel on the wall or stand on the patio. None are allowed in the back yard without supervision.

How deep are your ponds? I see some pictures of setups that I know nothing about. Talk about naïve. Lots to read about and learn.

Thank you everyone for all your input.
Marg

[philly]

It's good ( None are allowed in the back yard without supervision ) that way it is safer and no mishap will ever happen. I have padlock on all my doors leading to the back yard and increased my insurance policy to 2 million dollars liability just in case someone decides jumps the fence but that's OK as my agent said I did my best to keep them out so that is trespassing no fault of mine if they fall in.

[Jackie Ramo]

Marge, the one thing about this hobby is there is always something to learn. New products and new ideas are springing up all the time. The one thing I've noticed about kids and ponds is that once the fish get a certain size, the kids are very careful near the edge. :HAHA: Only had one fall in after many years of having a pond. Only thing hurt was her dignity as she slipped into the water on the first shelf.

[philly]

When you fell in was the water very COLD !!!!! and how hard was it to get out of the pond? I myself have not fallen in yet but the day it happens I would like to have some idea what to expect especially when you can't swim.

[marla]

Marg, lovely pond you did a great job. We plan on redoing our littlest pond next year and I would like to raise it up a bit more, a little more formal, the other two are more natural. Our grandkids love the pond. The oldest grandson (4yrs) is here often and loves to hunt and catch frogs, this year I caught him standing in the lily pond with his sandles on trying to catch them. I have to be very careful with the littler one who is 18months and has no fear. Our ponds are not to deep, the main pond is 30" (76cm) and the lily pond has a deeper center about 36" (91cm)

philly, I have had my share of slips while in the pond, this fall I got water in the wadders, however I've never completely fallen yet.

[philly]

Well the shallow end being 5' and the deep side over 6', i don't think waders are going to help me in any way just hope when i fall in it's the shallow side. As for the grand kids you will have to keep one eye on them even when your backs are turned cause they are so quick and get into mischief very easily one minute here next minute gone.

[Jackie Ramo]

When you fell in was the water very COLD !!!!! and how hard was it to get out of the pond? I myself have not fallen in yet but the day it happens I would like to have some idea what to expect especially when you can't swim.


It depends on the time of year you fall in if the water is cold or not. Fell in from the waterfall once, big splash. Fortunately my pond is only 5 feet deep so I can touch bottom and walk out. There is also a shelf that runs most of the way around the pond so if kids fall in they only get somewhat wet.

[philly]

I guess it will be harder for me as the side with the shelf the wall is about 3' high above the pond and the open side there is no steps what so ever, :banghead: maybe a rope ladder hidden close by would be a good idea just in case it ever becomes my turn going in, although i have said don't plan on it you can never tell. What time on Tuesday suites your schedule to visit Terri?

[Jackie Ramo]

Every pond owner goes in at some point :frisbee: on purpose or by accident.

Any time is good for me, just let me know. I do warn I am not good in the early morning. :yup: