Know your salt... give-a-way!

[Ian]

Ok, I'll start if off with the ONLY thing you have to do to get a free Koi Medic II (http://www.canadiankoiandpond.ca/productswq.html) digial salt meter... Post a reason why salt is used for in our hobby.

Now, we're going to make this like a surviver series :wink: Here's where knowing your salt comes into play...
- if anyone disputes your reason for salt use and can back that up with factual information or 3 votes against your reason for 'mal-practice' (heehee) and/or dosage rates, weight, etc., you will be 'bumped' and have to try again in order to get your name back in the running.

You have until April 1st ... nah just kidding :frisbee: ( April fool's joke - get it? )

Seriously, time given to get yourself in the draw - March 30th, 2007. We'll draw the winner March 31st, 2007 ( that's a Saturday ;) )

I hope we get some good information from this thread. As an added incentive, the person with the most informative factual tid-bit on salt use, to be voted by myself, Terri, and Jackie (sucker!), will receive a bonus prize :grin: ( got to go check the barrel of goodies... )

[NaturesCall]

I find that salt placed directly on french fries enhances the taste experience. :)

[Koidaddy]

Walt, I'll challenge that statement by saying... "Everyone knows salt is bad for one's blood pressure"!!

KD
:)

I find that salt placed directly on french fries enhances the taste experience. :)

[Ian]

Ahhhh yall get it.. your both out :frisbee:

[NaturesCall]

Ahhhh yall get it.. your both out :frisbee:This is hard... :wink:

[Peg]

Well lets get things started.
I feel like I’m back in high school :eek: . I had to do some homework. Here are a few tidbits,of my own & the resalts (He,He) of some research.
Sodium chloride or common salt is the chemical compound NaCl, composed of the elements sodium and chloride. Salt is found naturally in many parts of the world. Some salt is one the surface, the dried-up remains of ancient seas, like the famous Bonneville Salt Flats in Utah. Surface salt depositions and man-made salt works can be seen from space. It’s colour varies from colorless, when pure, to white, gray or brownish. Chemically, it is 60.663% elemental chlorine (Cl) and 39.337% sodium (Na). Rock salt typically ranges between 95% and 99% This % is what we look for when we use salt in our pond.

Salt is sold in several different particle sizes and forms. It depending on what you plan on using it for. Here are some of the different things salt is used for.
Rock salt is used for deicing
Then there is table salt,
Pickling salts
Saltwater softeners
Blocks are used as salt licks for livestock.
Oh! And I can’t forget to mention that it is also used as a treatment for Koi to help reduce stress and help eradicate 7 out of 10 parasites found on Koi and Koi ponds.

[NaturesCall]

You forgot french fries...it's found on them too. :-?

Good job Newbie

[carcha koi]

SALT. THE FISH ASPRIRIN. WE CAN USE IT AS A DESTRESSER, A ANTI BACTERIAL, A ANTI FUNGUL, OR AN ANTI PARISTITE. NOW THE TUFF PART. WHAT CONCENTRATION AND FOR HOW LONG. .3% OR UP TO 3 OR EVEN 5 FOR SHORT TERM BATHS OR RINSES. THE BIG TRICK IS KNOWING NOT TO USE IT WTH A LOT OF OTHER MEDS, IE FORMALIN.
I FIND THAT THE USE OF SALT WORKS BEST AS A PRE MEDICATION. USE THE SALT A FEW DAYS BEFORE TREATING THE POND OR FISH. IT BREAKS DOWN THE SLIME COAT BEFORE IT INCREASES IT'S SLIME COVER SO THE OTHER MEDS WORK BETTER. SALT ALSO HELPS THE FISH'S EQUILIBRIUM. IT TAKES THE PARASITES OFF THE FISH SO THE SECONDARY INFECTION CAN BE TREATED.
USE AMOUNTS AND OBJECTIVES
2LB PER 100 GAL TONIC FOR WEAK FISH OR STRESSED FISH .ALGAE BEGINS TO DIE.
2.5LBS/100 GAL DETOXIFIES NITRITES.
4LBS/100 GAL DESTOYS POOL PARASITES
8LBS/100 GAL TREATS FISH ULCERS 4 WEEK TREATMENT WITH ANTIBIOTICS

DIPS
1LB/GAL 15 SECOND DIP DESTROYS PARASITES
1LB/ 3GAL DISINFECTANT FOR INJURIES IE AFTER SPAWNING . 10-15 SECOND DIP.


1 TSP/ 5GAL ANTESEPTIC FOR OPEN WOUNDS .


SALT THE WONDER DRUG IF USED CORRECTLY. :smile:

[Peg]

Looks like it's just you and me so far Chris :wink:
Here are some good reasons to use salt before over the counter meds. First off it’s CHEAP, it does not harm humans that come in contact with it. It won’t harm your filter like many meds do. It does not brake down in the system but can be removed with several water changes. It is good to use on many fish species, but not all. It should not push sick fish over the edge.
When using salt in a whole pond situation it is best to pre dissolve the salt in a 5 gal. pail of pond water. It should then be poured around the edges of the pond so that it is evenly distributed. This helps prevent the chance of burning your fish. It is also important to increase aeration along with circulation. One should also keep a good eye on their stock when introducing any kind of treatment. Salt should be maintained at 0.3%, and added over a 3-day period. . At 0.1% daily, I believe it should be maintaine for a 14 day period to cover most incubation periods. For pond situations salt should be measured at 1 pound per hundred gallons. So for example my pond is 3600 gallons. That would equal 36 pounds on day 1 to give me a 0.1% content. 36 pounds on day 2 would give me a 0.2% content. On day 3, you got it! 36 more pounds. I now should have a 0.3% salt content. After a water change and lots & lots & lots of drops from my test kit (this is where a salt meter would come in handy, Hint, Hint :lol: ) I now only have to replace the salt in the water I am replacing. I know that a 10% water change removes 360 gallons, so some simple math tells me I have to add 3.6pounds of salt x 3 for a total of 10.8 lbs. That’s it for today. I have things to do and kids to nag at. :twisted:

[carcha koi]

ONE THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT SALT KILLS BACTERIA GOOD AND BAD.SOOOO IF YOU DON'T WNAT TO KILL OFF ALL YOUR BENNEFICAL BACTERIA IN YOUR FILTER YOU MAY WISH TO BI-PASS IT WHEN YOU ARE TREATING YOUR POND. THAT SAID I ALSO BELIEVE THAT A SMALL AMOUNT SHOULD BE ADDED TO YOUR POND ON A REGULAR BASIS PROVIDING YOU ARE DOING A WATER CHANGE. AS MENTIONED EARLIER SMALL AMOUNTS HELP DETOXIFY NITRITES AND KILL ALGAE WHICH WE ALL WANT TO DO. NOW THAT WE ARE DOING ALL THESE WATER CHANGES AND ADDING SALT EVEN OUR BEST CALCULATIONS WON'T GIVE US A TRUE SALT CONTENT UNLESS WE HAVE A DIGITAL SALT METER.


BTW FRENCH FRIES ARE SALTY ENOUGH, I PREFER SALT ON MY BRUSSEL SPROUTS. !rofl

[Koidaddy]

Okay, I'll give it a whirl - I'm new at this, so please be patient!
KD

The use of therapeutic salt treatment has been widespread through the history of the koi hobby. In the early days it was used as a cure-all, panacea type of treatment for all sorts of ailments, from parasite infestations to bacterial infections, when no other drugs were available. Many koi keepers still maintain a constant dosage of salt throughout the year, or add salt in spring even though their koi are healthy. This practice troubles me and I will attempt to explain in this article.

It happens that koi, and carp in general, have a relatively high tolerance for salty water. This tolerance allows for a koi to be placed in water that is too salty for parasites to live in, yet not salty enough to kill the koi. In the relatively early days of the hobby, Japanese farmers exploited this characteristic and used salt treatments to cure koi of parasites. These treatments worked well in those days for parasites such as Ich and Chilodonella. However, parasite adaptation being what it is, those which were susceptible to the treatment gradually built up a tolerance for salt, and in modern times, in-pond salt treatments are nearly ineffective for any sort of koi parasite. The levels of salt now required to eradicate common koi parasites are so large that they approach the threshold that could damage the koi if left in the treatment for an extended period of time. Short-term salt baths still retain some effectiveness as they are used in high concentration and for only a short time, lessening the potential damage to the koi.

Salt, though tolerated by koi, is an irritant. It causes the koi to increase its mucous production to insulate its body from the irritant. My concern is that a koi that is constantly subjected to this low level irritation by long-term salt "treatment" is less healthy. My personal opinion is that a koi that is constantly producing mucous to react to salt is less capable offending off other stressors, when they arise.

Salt has also been used by some as a treatment for bacterial infection. This strategy is dubious at best. First of all, the most common bacteria affecting koi, Aeromonas, is not affected by salt levels in which koi can survive. If a koi has an infection, do not rely on salt alone to treat the koi. That being said, salt does have valuable uses in our hobby. When a koi has been in a show, or recently shipped, the use of salt, as an in-pond treatment at around 0.3% concentration is effective to increase mucous excretion and help to heal transport/handling abrasions. When used for a short period of time, salt will assist stressed koi as they recover from disease. This would be one of two situations in which I would recommend an in-pond use of salt. Important also is to flush out the salt through regular water changes when the treatment has run its course.

The second condition in which I would advocate in-pond salt use is to combat "New Pond Syndrome." When a pond is first filled with water and koi are added, it has no bacteria in the filter to break down ammonia produced by the koi. This typically results in a rise in ammonia levels in the pond until the filter "kicks in." When the bacteria in the filter begin to colonize and break down ammonia, it is converted to nitrite. Nitrite is equally dangerous to koi and is also eventually removed by filter bacteria. Nitrite-reducing bacteria are notoriously slow to populate koi ponds, and the interim time of high nitrite levels can prove hazardous to the koi. Salt is effective in this situation to counteract the effects of nitrite on koi. A low dosage of salt (about 0.1%) is all that is needed to ease your koi through this potentially dangerous time when starting a new pond.

Another key drawback to keeping salt in your pond is that you are not able to use other pond treatments at the same time. There have been cases where grave damage to koi collections occurred when they were subjected to treatments such as Formalin while salt was still in the pond water. Combinations of any pond treatment should be avoided if at all possible. So, considering the time it takes to effectively reduce the salt concentration via water changes, you increase the time you must wait to switch to another treatment such as Formalin/malachite green or potassium permanganate.

My general position on the use of koi as a health treatment is "Why use it if you don't need it?" There are only a couple of valid reasons for the use of salt in your pond, and if you don't fall into one of those categories (new pond or recovery from damage/transport), I'd discourage its use. There are more effective treatments out there if your koi have a problem. The next time you are faced with a koi health problem, explore the treatments available before habitually reaching for the salt bag.

Article by Michael Kimberling from the Oklahoma Koi Society~ "Salt use in Koi Ponds"
:wink: KD

[carcha koi]

PLAGIARISM :grin:
NICE KD. A LOT OF GOOD INFO.

[Ian]

Come on people! it should be only newbie in the running as the chris's should have a chalenge! KD should get hammered fot it!

[Peg]

The dosage of medication either in human or animal is never an exact science. There are to many variables. Like evaporation for one, miss calculation or miss information. When a doctor gives you an antibiotic it is based on the info you provide. Much like how we know when are fish is not acting right. They show signs of unusual behavior like we do. The doctor will determine what meds, dosage and length of treatment. Are they always right? No, not always. They have learned through experience, research and learned information from past data. Very much like we do as Koi keepers. To the best of my understanding salt will only impact or shock your fish & filter if the salt concentration is added to quickly at a high rate, or if it is added directly to the filter system. The filter then becomes sterile or new. I’m a big believer in no meds unless there is no other choice. We tend to build up and immunity to them and this is being noted in fish studies as well on parasites. Prevention is the best medicine. Regular water changes, proper water turn over, regular filter cleaning, water testing, QT, not over stocking and a good diet all aid in promoting healthy fish.

[Koidaddy]

I never drink before noon!

Come on people! it should be only newbie in the running as the chris's should have a chalenge! KD should get hammered fot it!

[Koidaddy]

Seriously now, what if I think newbie's post makes a whole lot of sense (which I do) ... what's there to challenge?

Eyes not as smart ass the rest of yous!
KD
:frisbee:

[Koidaddy]

newbie, I'm impressed by your thorough knowledge of Salt... are you a sigh and tist?

KD
:grin:
(my apologies Ian, I promise to get serious)

[Jackie Ramo]

Now, we're going to make this like a surviver series Here's where knowing your salt comes into play... - if anyone disputes your reason for salt use and can back that up with factual information or 3 votes against your reason for 'mal-practice' (heehee) and/or dosage rates, weight, etc., you will be 'bumped' and have to try again in order to get your name back in the running.

I see several posts that need to be challenged. Research people research. I have a salt metre, a tool needed by all koi keepers.

[Peg]

Hi KD, No sigh & tists in this house. Dan wants to be a Vet, Does that count.
Ok Jackie! The gloves are coming Off !bonk
I challenge Chris from Lindsay
Dips - From what I have been able to gather from doing some research and past experience. Salt dips should be as follows. 10 tbs to 1 gal of pond water or 50 tbs to 5 gal well aerated pond water for approximately 7-10 min or until the fish seems weak but does not flip over which ever comes first. This can be done for three dips, done every other day. Added aeration is recommended. I have dipped Fly for 30 min with no ill effect. This was due to some red streaking in his pectoral and tail fins late last summer. Only did it once and all is well.
Chris’s amount strikes me as to high and the time to short to do much good but add undue stress to the fish.
I read somewhere and (I’ll be damned if I can find it now) that the reason we use 0.3% is that it is closer to the fishes own body salt content of 0.9% therefore it reduces the amount of water trying to enter the wound, gills and body and that's what helps in the healing. Any amount over 0.9% and the reverse happens, it starts to dehydrate the fish and then we would have fish jerky. !wow! As for nitrites, 0.1% is all that is needed to limit the damaging amount being taken in by the fish through the blood stream.
OK Chris! Remember it’s just a game. Put... away... the... taser.... gun. :()

[Koidaddy]

Oh pleeeeeze.. his gun is plastic!

OK Chris! Remember it’s just a game. Put... away... the... taser.... gun. :()

[Peg]

KD, when ever you and Chris post on the same page the two of you crack me up with laughter. THANKS!!

[carcha koi]

NOW NEWBIE I CAN'T SAY ANYTHING BAD ABOUT WHAT YOU POSTED YOU ARE JUST TOO DAMN NICE. NOW KD IS A DIFFERENT STORY.
REMEMBER CHRIS FROM LINDSAY !strut
CHRIS FROM MONTREAL :twisted:

[carcha koi]

Deb
Dips Are Not Just For Fruit Or Chips. They Are Short Term. The Concentration Is High But For A Reason. The Fresh Water Bacteria And Parasites Can't Handle It. If Used For The 10 Second Time Frame It Can Be An Irritant To The Fish But You Are Wanting The Benneficial Results.. Info From The Pond Dr. By Helen Nash And From The Guide To Koi And Goldfish By Dr. Myron Kebus.
If You Are Sticking To Low Concentration Gill Flukes And The Dreaded Costia Can Take The Lower Concentrations. Remember. Salt Used Before Other Meds Helps With The Fish Slime And Destresses. The Other Chemicals Will Burn More Fish Than The Salt Will. Burns From Formalin And Others Look Like They Have Been Nuked.
I Agree With Your First Comments But I Will Defend The Salt Baths And Dips.

[Peg]

Thanks Chris that's nice of you to say, But I am a Gemini (the twins) You got to meet the nice me :grin: . I was able to keep the evil one under control :twisted: !rofl
Peg

[Terri]

BUMP.....

good job so far newbie

Ditto Jackie,... research folks. I could nit-pick but I won't - this is for you all to get on with :grin:

KD, carcha koi, and newbie... you've all supplied some very good info but (and that's a big but) there are mixed messages.. clean it up (where's the broom?)

Walt, I do believe you can do much better... come out and play :wink: (FYI I luv salt on my fries... but not so much on my fish :frisbee: )

...crawlin' back in my little hole :razz:

[Koidaddy]

Okay, I pulled out my big broom and cleaned 'er up... I took the time to pear down to what I believe is relevant when using salt, period. Anyone up to a challenge?

KD
:frisbee:

Okay, I'll give it a whirl - I'm new at this, so please be patient!
KD

The use of therapeutic salt treatment has been widespread through the history of the koi hobby. In the early days it was used as a cure-all, panacea type of treatment for all sorts of ailments, from parasite infestations to bacterial infections, when no other drugs were available.

Salt, though tolerated by koi, is an irritant. It causes the koi to increase its mucous production to insulate its body from the irritant. My concern is that a koi that is constantly subjected to this low level irritation by long-term salt "treatment" is less healthy. My personal opinion is that a koi that is constantly producing mucous to react to salt is less capable offending off other stressors, when they arise.

Salt has also been used by some as a treatment for bacterial infection. This strategy is dubious at best. First of all, the most common bacteria affecting koi, Aeromonas, is not affected by salt levels in which koi can survive. If a koi has an infection, do not rely on salt alone to treat the koi. That being said, salt does have valuable uses in our hobby. When a koi has been in a show, or recently shipped, the use of salt, as an in-pond treatment at around 0.3% concentration is effective to increase mucous excretion and help to heal transport/handling abrasions. When used for a short period of time, salt will assist stressed koi as they recover from disease.

When a pond is first filled with water and koi are added, it has no bacteria in the filter to break down ammonia produced by the koi. This typically results in a rise in ammonia levels in the pond until the filter "kicks in." When the bacteria in the filter begin to colonize and break down ammonia, it is converted to nitrite. Nitrite is equally dangerous to koi and is also eventually removed by filter bacteria. Nitrite-reducing bacteria are notoriously slow to populate koi ponds, and the interim time of high nitrite levels can prove hazardous to the koi. Salt is effective in this situation to counteract the effects of nitrite on koi. A low dosage of salt (about 0.1%) is all that is needed to ease your koi through this potentially dangerous time when starting a new pond.
Another key drawback to keeping salt in your pond is that you are not able to use other pond treatments at the same time. There have been cases where grave damage to koi collections occurred when they were subjected to treatments such as Formalin while salt was still in the pond water. Combinations of any pond treatment should be avoided if at all possible.

"My general position on the use of Salt as a health treatment is "Why use it if you don't need it?" (KD approved :wink: ) There are only a couple of valid reasons for the use of salt in your pond, and if you don't fall into one of those categories (new pond or recovery from damage/transport), I'd discourage its use. There are more effective treatments out there if your koi have a problem. The next time you are faced with a koi health problem, explore the treatments available before habitually reaching for the salt bag."

Article by Michael Kimberling from the Oklahoma Koi Society~ "Salt use in Koi Ponds"
:wink: KD

[NaturesCall]

BUMP.....

Walt, I do believe you can do much better... come out and play :wink: (FYI I luv salt on my fries... but not so much on my fish :frisbee: )

...crawlin' back in my little hole :razz:
I will soon :) I've been tied up with work 7 days a week and The Khv site I put together. It's interesting the international responses it's recieving.

[Koidaddy]

Oh yes... so busy he has the time to throw my beloved Sparkles amid an active avalanche!


I will soon :) I've been tied up with work 7 days a week and The Khv site I put together. It's interesting the international responses it's recieving.

[NaturesCall]

Oh yes... so busy he has the time to throw my beloved Sparkles amid an active avalanche! Fish Killer. !bonk :grin:

[Peg]

Well seeing alot of us are still dealing with winter :( :mad: I though I would see what I could find about The Effects of Salt on Water Temperature. Some of this info is from the KHA site and some from searching around the web.
As some of are aware, and some of us are still learning, salt is used in many ponds for a variety of reasons and many pond owners still use high levels of salt in the fall to help reduce parasite loads going into winter. Some years ago it was concidered “accepted” practice to keep high levels of salt in the pond all winter long to guard against parasites. Now It is believed that this is a bad practice as high levels of salt in the pond over winter can lead to serious problems for the fish. The chloride component of salt affects the density level of water and by doing so can lower the physical temperature of water. the physics of water tells us that water at natural “fresh water” levels cannot get below 39 Deg F under normal conditions. We know that the natural chloride (or salt) levels of fresh water are between .02 and .1% depending on location and your source of water. At these levels, the temperature of water is not affected by the presence of chloride. But if we raise the level of chloride above the natural levels, the density of water reaches its maximum level at lower water temperatures. This will allow the water temperatures in the pond to drop below the 35-39 deg F range and affect the fish.
So, it is a good practice to recommend to those using salt to reduce their salt levels to “natural” levels (below .1%) before winter sets in.
And salt levels of .1% can be maintained for indefinite periods of time without
a risk to the fish or concern for developing salt resistant parasites
OK, So we know that if we increase the salinity levels of the water, we lower the water temperature .As temperate fish, koi will with stand water
temperature down to 35 deg F before being affected by hypothermia and given this thin line of maximum water density (39 deg F) to the lower limit of 35 deg F, we can see that having an elevated salinity level greater then.1% can cause serious problems with our fish’s health. This needs to be considered when applying salt in cold water conditions whether to prevent nitrite poisoning or parasite control.
Did all of the parasites die off in winter? Some say yes & some say no.
Therefore, it is always a good idea to do a .3% (3000 ppm) salt or, if you are an advanced ponder - a 2PPM potassium permanganate treatment, to your pond at about 60 degrees in an effort to reduce or kill off the emerging parasite colonies.
Salt: This is a distant “second best” treatment to MG (Malachite Green) when treating Saprolegnia (Sap). Salt in the 0.6 to 1.0% range for 30 minutes or less can help eliminate sap. The caution with this is that the higher the salt level, the more stress the fish will endure so check on the stability of your fish prior to performing a high-level salt bath.
Peg

[carcha koi]

NOT BAD PEG!!!
SALT DOES NOT MAKE THE POND WATER COLDER IT LOWERS FREEZING TEMP. I KNOW THAT ISN'T GOOD EITHER.
YOU HAVE DONE YOUR HOMEWORK PEG. I STILL BELIEVE THAT SALT IS THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENCE. IT IS NATURAL AND IS WIDELY USED IN THE FISH/TROUT/SALMON INDUSTRY. IT IS CHEAP AND A PRE-MED TO OTHERS. MOST WILL TREAT A FEW DAYS PRYOR TO USING FORMALIN OR CHLORIMINE T.
IT WORKS GREAT ON GILL DISEASE, FLUKES AND BACTERIA. OR SHOULD IN MY CASE THIS YEAR GIVEN THE BACTERIAL INFECTIONS AND MY WATER TEMPS IT DIDN'T DO ITS JOB. TEMP WAS TOO LOW TO USE STRONGER MEDS SO HAD TO USE MAINLY SALT. LOST HALF MY STOLK TO BACTERIAL INFECTIONS. :-x :-x
I STILL STAND BY IT JUST DIDNT USE IT EARLY ENOUGH IN SEASON.
GOOD JOB PEG

[Koidaddy]

CFL, careful how you phrase your treatment steps. I'm sure you mean to treat with salt in a separate vessel as combining formalin with salt can yield disastrous results... or so I've read.

KD
From KD post, previous page. :)
"Another key drawback to keeping salt in your pond is that you are not able to use other pond treatments at the same time. There have been cases where grave damage to koi collections occurred when they were subjected to treatments such as Formalin while salt was still in the pond water. Combinations of any pond treatment should be avoided if at all possible."



NOT BAD PEG!!!
SALT DOES NOT MAKE THE POND WATER COLDER IT LOWERS FREEZING TEMP. I KNOW THAT ISN'T GOOD EITHER.
YOU HAVE DONE YOUR HOMEWORK PEG. I STILL BELIEVE THAT SALT IS THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENCE. IT IS NATURAL AND IS WIDELY USED IN THE FISH/TROUT/SALMON INDUSTRY. IT IS CHEAP AND A PRE-MED TO OTHERS. MOST WILL TREAT A FEW DAYS PRYOR TO USING FORMALIN OR CHLORIMINE T.IT WORKS GREAT ON GILL DISEASE, FLUKES AND BACTERIA. OR SHOULD IN MY CASE THIS YEAR GIVEN THE BACTERIAL INFECTIONS AND MY WATER TEMPS IT DIDN'T DO ITS JOB. TEMP WAS TOO LOW TO USE STRONGER MEDS SO HAD TO USE MAINLY SALT. LOST HALF MY STOLK TO BACTERIAL INFECTIONS. :-x :-x
I STILL STAND BY IT JUST DIDNT USE IT EARLY ENOUGH IN SEASON.
GOOD JOB PEG

[carcha koi]

kd
TREAT FIRST WITH SALT. A COUPLE DAYS LATER DO YOUR WATER CHANGE THEN TREAT WITH OTHER MEDS. THE SALT INCREASES THE SLIME COAT WHICH HELPS PROTECT YOUR FISH FROM THE CHEMICALS YOU ADD. IF YOU HAVE EVER WATCHED BRADY IN HIS KOI FIXX DVD YOU WILL SEE HIM TREAT HIS FISH WITH SALT ALMOST TO THE POINT WHERE THE FISH ARE FLOATING.

[Koidaddy]

Yes, have that dvd at home :)
I'm pming you now

[Peg]

As stated earlier.
The chloride component of salt affects the density level of water and by doing so can lower the physical temperature of water. the physics of water tells us that water at natural “fresh water” levels cannot get below 39 Deg F under normal conditions. We know that the natural chloride (or salt) levels of fresh water are between .02 and .1% depending on location and your source of water. At these levels, the temperature of water is not affected by the presence of chloride. But if we raise the level of chloride above the natural levels, the density of water reaches its maximum level at lower water temperatures. This will allow the water temperatures in the pond to drop below the 35-39 deg F range and affect the fish.
Well this got me to thinking and MAN did it hurt !rofl
I'm off to do a little science experiment.
I have 3 buckets. The 1st will be the controll bucket
The 2nd will have 0.3% salt added
The 3rd will have 0.6%
All 3 buckets will have 3 gallons of water, so this will be small scale, also taking into account that there is no insulation around the buckets.
The plan is to place then in the freezer and check them in 4 hour intervals to see if 2 things happen.
1- which will freeze first
2- MOST important is to see which one is coldest. I'll use my pond thermometer to do this. It's quite clear I have nothing better to do with my time this weekend :lol:
I'll keep you all posted
Peg

[Koidaddy]

OMG...we have an overachiever here!!! Peg, your posts are amazing... such dedication! You must have been a straight A student. I bet you always had your homework done on time... probably in advance before it was handed out by the teacher (in alpha numeric order no less).

Now, if this was a thread about the principles of creative credit card spending or bar tending, I'd have plenty to say!! :wink:

Terri & Ian, May as well hand Peg the salt meter now!!
:grin:

[carcha koi]

GREAT JOB PEG. SHE HAD AN UNFARE ADVATAGE BEING A COASTER, THEY SALT EVERYTHING. SALT BEEF AND CABBAGE. FISHNBREWS. SalT SALT SALT.
GREAT JOB PEG. :smile:

[Peg]

What can I say, salt runs through my vains, that's why I don't freeze up in the cold weather !rofl !rofl
KD, I sucked in school except for Art and Science. Never had anything in on time. Never did homework, skipped class and hung out. School was so cool!
Peg
By the way KD did you decide to get the fish?????? or are the cards full :frisbee:

[Jackie Ramo]

So where is the experiement report??? :frisbee:

[Peg]

I'll have to get back to you on that Jackie. Turned out to be nuts around here this weekend. 8 teenagers in the house !wow! , shopping. Picking up tickets for holidays and got some patio chairs for the summer, had to clear the upper deck of snow so we had somewhere to put them. Went to a model plane and heli display and of course Peter had to check it all out twice, While I sat and day dreamed about SPRING and KOI :grin: So the test got put on hold, I'm on afternoons this week so I should be able to get to it. Not sure if there is enough room in the freezer to do all 3 buckets at once , so I may have to do it 1 at a time.
Peg

[Jackie Ramo]

Bump bump bump

[Koidaddy]

Bump bump bump

Here's a Band-aid
:har:

[Jackie Ramo]

:banghead: sorry didn't mean to trip you KD :oops:

[Koidaddy]

!rofl

[Peg]

Well here are some of the resalts :clap: of the water/salt tests bucket #1 plain water 3 gallons frozen in the freezer. Temp came in at 32 degrees and never changed no matter how long I left it in. Bucket #2 was water/salt at 0.1 %. again freezing temp was 32 degrees and did not drop. Last but not least the 3rd bucket is now in the freezer. I will check it in the morning and see what happened. It is a Proven scientific fact that salt lowers the freezing point of water.
Salt lowers the temperature at which water freezes and melts. Pure water,
H2O, freezes (and melts) at 0°C (32°F). But the more "salt" (any elements
or compounds carried by the water in solution, such as Na (sodium), Ca
(calcium), Cl (chloride), and SO4 (sulfate)) in water, the lower its
freezing point. For example, seawater, will freeze (and melt) at -2.2°C. A water with extreme salinity such as very salty lake waters at Death Valley, California may freeze and melt at temperatures as low as -20 - -30°C!
Because salt lowers the freezing point depression, it is added to icy roads
in order to melt the ice.
The reason why salt lowers the freezing temperature of water is a bit more
difficult to explain without discussing more complex chemistry. Basically,
pure water, H2O, is a different substance than salt water, such as NaCl-
H2O. As different substances, they have different chemical properties.
Salt "gets in the way" of the interactions between H and O, making it
harder for the H and O to bond as ice.
I'll post back when I get some results
Peg

[Peg]

6:30 am the bucket has a nice layer of ice so I have now removed it from the freezer. Bucket # 1 & 2 had a layer of ice about 4 " thick and were forming a solid block. While bucket # 3 has just a thin later of ice and has lots of slush in it. All buckets were in the freezer for 8 hours. the thermometer is now in place and I'll check up on it and post back the resalts :wink: in a little bit. Because I can't change the temp of the freezer I have to draw this conculsion. I'll have to use the time line theary instead over the 8 hours. bucket 1&2 were well on there way to becoming a solid block of ice. Bucket 3 in the freezer was much slower to freeze to the same point as the other two over the same time frame. So in fact if # 3 was left in longer it would eventualy freeze but only because it has to be exposed to the cold longer. This tells me that in theary if this was a pond situation salted at 0.3% the water would take longer to develop ice. Some would say this is a good thing less ice better for the fish. But keep in mind if it takes the water longer to freeze that means that the temp has to drop to lower temps to do so and this is where the danger to our fish comes in. :fishbone: You have to remember that while our ponds freeze over the water temp below the ice is warmer and thats why the pond does not completly freeze solid. But by adding salt which is distributed throughout the whole pond you are therefore lowering the total water temp.
Peg

[Jackie Ramo]

We have a scientist amongst us!! Good work NtN

[carcha koi]

OK ALREADY JUST GIVE HER THE SALT METER BEFORE SHE GETS HER DOCTORIT IN THE SUBJECT. GOOD WORK PEG.
HEW DA TUNK A NEWF WIT ALDEM BRAINS NOT BAD LOOKIN EADER. :phfft:
SEE YA PEG, GOOD WORK.
BTW BROCK IS DOING FINE, GROWING LIKE A BAD WEED.

[Peg]

Thanks Jackie,
Thank you Chris, This has been a great learning curve for me and I’m sure the fish will benefit from it as well. I’m glad to hear Brock is doing good, has he seen the pond yet? Can you post a pic. I’d love to see how mush he has changed. Crime must be up in Lindsay, Haven't see you around lately. Us girls need your help to keep KD in line don't ya Know :frisbee:
Peg

[Koidaddy]

Thanks Jackie,
Thank you Chris, This has been a great learning curve for me and I’m sure the fish will benefit from it as well. I’m glad to hear Brock is doing good, has he seen the pond yet? Can you post a pic. I’d love to see how mush he has changed. Crime must be up in Lindsay, Haven't see you around lately. Us girls need your help to keep KD in line don't ya Know :frisbee:
Peg

I'm shaking in my boots! :phfft:

[Jackie Ramo]

Knowing KD, he's probably shaking his bootie :jumping:

[Peg]

deleted by me :oops:

[carcha koi]

HI LADIES, I HAVE BEEN BUSY BUT KEEPING KD IN LINE WOULD BE A FULL TIME JOB. IT WOULD BE FUN BUT THE PAY? :bleh:

[Koidaddy]

HI LADIES, I HAVE BEEN BUSY BUT KEEPING KD IN LINE WOULD BE A FULL TIME JOB. IT WOULD BE FUN BUT THE PAY? :bl eh:
Most would do it for free just to be in my company... right nanny?

As my mother used to say (God rest her soul) "To know me, is to love me"

KD
:lol:

[koinanny]

Oh!! behaaave KD

KN
:-)

[carcha koi]

I Was Just Kidding Kd About Using An Alias, This Split Personality Of Yours, You Got To Take Them Pills Boy.

[Terri]

Better late than never.. :banghead: sorry everyone.


Well, Ian and I picked the winner - and I'm sure Jackie will agree with our choice.

Some good info in this thread, thanks to all who participated :-)

Peg - Not the Newbie, you my dear did a bang up job of research and providing information on salt and it's use for our hobby. Congrats sweetie :grin: See you in a couple of weeks.
We'll do this again soon, just have to think of some item to put up on the block.. suggestions welcome.

[Koidaddy]

Congrats Peg!! - you deserve it. :yup:



(I never win anything)
:crybaby:

[Jackie Ramo]

I think Jackie should have one :HAHA:

Oh sorry, thought I was KoiNanny

[Koidaddy]

I think Jackie should have one :HAHA:

Oh sorry, thought I was KoiNanny

:HAHA:


:crybaby:

[Peg]

Thanks Everyone,
It was alot of fun :jumping: , and I learned alot. I'm sure the fish will benefit, but not to soon I hope. Last year with the little ones I wished a hundred times I had one.
Hey Terri, How about a fish????
See you on Sunday

[carcha koi]

YA YA YA. OK YOU WON. :phfft:
GREAT JOB PEG :yup: