Sick Fish

[Gerard]

Hi all been a while

I got home from an extended work away from home to find my fish sick, I have already lost one fish and there are another two with to me it looks like ulsers but i dont know have got two pics please help with suggestions i have checked all my levels

water temp 18'C
Ammonia 1
Nitrite 0
pH 8
Nitrate 100 A bit high but working on this

i have added 20 Kg salt for 16 000 litres of water i have also added a antibac treatment (forget the name but it made my water blue)

Do i worry about these fish

Trevor (all orange) has been taken to the local koi doc he says it should be fine i am looking for second opinions please


the wounds have not got worse in 1 week but have also not got any better

Courage (kohaku) i only noticed the wound last night is he going to be ok


They are both eating still as well as coming up for hand feeds


Thank you gerard

[Jackie Ramo]

Gerard, the pics didn't come through, you can send the to myself or Terri and we wll post them for you.

Ammonia is more deadly at higher pH, you need to do some water changes provided your source water is very good. Also add a dechloriator to the water this will bind the ammonia and prevent it from harming the fish further. Water changes will also lower the nitrAte levels

[Terri]

Blue water... methylene blue?

I agree with Jackie re: the water quality. This needs to be address first and foremost...

In addition the two fish with open sores should be removed from the pond for treatment, we're speaking of hospital type set up - 500 gallons is a good size for smaller fish (7" to 15"), it will be easier to monitor their progress and for treatment purposes - good CLEAN water and heated to optimal (78F), high O2, salt addition 0.15% to 0.3% for osmotic relief, and either water based antibiotics or injects.
A scrape and scope would be prudent to identify any parasite activity... if found treat for parasites first with the appropriate 'nuke' then start to treat the sores with antibiotics. Scrape and Scope a few from the pond as well and treat the pond again if needed.

Wonder if we could get Dr. J Phillips over here? He's located in SA and would better be able to suggest available meds.

[Jackie Ramo]

Here are the pics of the fish. Not sure about the first pic... Next time send me two emails with the separate postings. The flash of orange on the first pic I'm not sure what it is. Other two I'm sure are sick fish.

[Terri]

Yup, the orange metallic has bacterial ulcers, dorsal looks awful :( Body sores are already missing scales so the upper epidermal layers are compromised. If injections are not an option then topical treatment should be applied after cleaning/drying the effected area. If topical antibiotics are not an option then antibiotic baths along with medicated food should help in healing (in a hospital tank set up as previously mentioned).

Red'n'white koi (kohaku?) has mouth rot... not easily treated with baths or topicals... doesn't appear to be too far gone so there's hope for good tissue regeneration but the mouth will never be the same. Is it still eating?

At any rate, they will heal far better in a very clean environment optimal temp for immune system response and lots of O2. If parasites are an issue here then healing will take longer(or not at all) unless the nasties are dealt with.

[Gerard]

Mistake in how i read the test kit

retested last night

Ammonia 0.1 mg/l
Nitrate 0 mg/l
Nitrate 75 mg/l
pH 8.5

The kohaku with mouth rot is still eating will this infection subside or dont you think so we have taken a scrape and no parasites were foundon the metalic orange fish,

i have been told about the injections which i think will be my next option and you say the infected fish need to be seperated to another tank (hospital tank).

One question what could have caused an outbreak like this all has been well up to now.


Very sorry about how badly this post has been writen but trying to do 10 000 other work things at the same time

One last thing

What system needs to be added to the hospital tank

Thanks
gerard

[Terri]

Gerard, we all understand how busy one can get... stretched in many different ways, such is life ;)

Nice hear no parasites to be found! :)

'0' ammonia is optimal, 0.1 is not - especially with your high pH... so something has happened to cause this but what I do not know...? For you to investigate and correct.
The effected fish should be isolated for treatment, especially with the low level of ammonia present in the pond - if the pond water was optimal then treating in pond would be fine but... like us, in order to get better they need an ideal environment inwhich to focus their resouces for healing (along with help from antibiotics).
Typically a hospital tank is large enough to comfortably accomidate the fish being treated, unlike a quarantine tank filters are not generally used because of medications that effect the biomedia. If you are going with injectables then having a filter would be ok. Water needs to be kept warm, well aerated, clean and fresh with frequent water changes.

Mouth rot left untreated generally only gets worse not better. It's a good sign that the kohaku is eating.

Wishing your fish a speedy recovery, please let us know how it's coming along :)

[Jackie Ramo]

Terri, what treatment do you suggest for the mouth rot or do you think the methelyne blue was enough?

[Terri]

I've not used MB on koi... several years ago on tropical fish for various things.

Recently had good success with Debride medicated ointment on a flutterbye with a 'minor' mouth infection located on the lower jaw, she's healing well but the mouth will never look the same - mind it's not noticable unless she is feeding. Generally with worse cases I would use an injectable antibiotic like baytril(broad spectrum). Mouth rot is caused by bacteria, it's 'feeding' on the tissue, if one could determine the strain a more direct attack with the appropriate antibiotic would be the course to take. The area on Gerards Kohaku's mouth looks to be still degenerating..? I see no signs of healing tissue (white) in the photo.... and what is pictured is 'outside', if the infection is also inside the mouth it (obviously) goes much deeper.

Jackie, we've all read on various boards how difficult it can be to successfully treat mouth rot, the key is catching it early, determining the cause, and taking action - most often injectibles are recommended - the mouth is a sensitive area and hard to treat topically... I think Gerard is on the right track though.