New DIY pond

[palsan]

Hi all,

Last fall I bought 5 tons of stone (Owen Sound drywall) thinking I would build a couple of raised flower beds in my backyard this spring. One thing led to another and all of a sudden I find myself afflicted by "pond disease". :grin:

I've spent the last month researching a DIY pond. Of all the websites I've come across, the backyard puddle has been one of the most helpful - especially for the DIYer. Even though I have learned alot (I think) I still have many questions to answer before I start digging. :confused:

Two weeks ago I visited a pond builder/koi retailer and he was very helpful. Last weekend I visited another local Koi retailer. I assumed that since he's selling expensive big koi he must be an "expert" and therefore, he would be able to help me. I explained my plan hoping he would try to make suggestions as to equipment and set-up but all I got was a sales pitch for expensive off the shelf equipment. He suggested that bottom drain would not be necessary for my set-up and that a submersible pump (I believe a Hozeloc?) would be ideal. He also tried to convince me that 55gal barrels would NOT work. :-x

So here I am for some advice...

My plan is for 45mil EPDM lined pond with a bottom drain. I would like to use two 55 gallon plastic barrels (gravity fed, in the ground, near the pond) for filtration - the first will be for settling big waste and the second with media for smaller stuff. Both will have a bottom drain for cleaning. The second barrel will be connected to the external pump which will feed to a 70 gallon "skippy" style biofilter waterfall. The water will then flow over a stone lined stream back to the pond.

I like plants, therefore the pond must have them. As a result, my fish load will be light - but enough to keep the mosquito population in check. I know koi are irresistable but I would like to start with maybe a dozen goldfish and if I really like this hobby then I will graduate to koi.

I won't mind spending money on a good pump, liner, quality fish, and quality plants but I would like to keep the cost as low as possible for the rest of the stuff - so far I have sourced two free barrels and old carpet to put under the liner.

The backyard is 50' wide and I would like the total "system" to be about 35' (stream plus pond). I would like the pond to be about 15' long by about 8' wide with deepest part no more than 3.5'. I would like an 18" deep shelf running about half the pond. My rough calculations suggest this set-up will give me about 2000gal plus the water in the filters and stream.

The pond will be in full sun all day long with no trees nearby (yet). There is a lilac near the waterfall though.

From what I have read, I need to circulate the volume of the pond once every one to two hours. That translates to 1000-2000 GPH.

Questions:
1. Can the 55gal barrels and 70gal biofilter support that kind of water flow?
2. Can I get away with a 3" bottom drain or do I need 4"?
3. How long does water have to be in the first barrel to give the solids enough time to settle?
4. What size pump do I need?
5. Since the second barrel will have media it will have less than 50gals of water. Therefore, will the pump suck it dry?
6. How much waterflow can the biofilter support? Do I need to feed a direct line from the pump to the waterfall to support a 12" weir and 15'-20' stream? That leads back to questions 1-5.
7. I've read that limestone can be bad for fish. Does anyone know if the OS drywall will be harmful?

Once the pond is built I would like to landscape the rest of the yard. Therefore, I would like to do the pond right the first time. I'm sure I will make mistakes along the way but I would like to avoid having to rip up any plants and landscaping to fix any pond errors.

Any input from the real experts would be greatly appreciated. :)

[Jackie Ramo]

Welcome and congratulatons on doing you home work first, so many of us dont.

Not being one of the diyers myself I'll leave that for those who can. I will say that 3.5 ft is not as deep as you think and more depth will give you options you won't have otherwise including koi. 18" is a good depth for a shelf but herons if they are in your area will use them. Also bigger is always better, even at 5,000 gallons there are times I wish mine was bigger. 2,000 gallons given some of that is stream is not that large a pond. You say how wide th eproperty is but not how deep but if you can have a 35 ft stream I'd look at a wider pond.

Still all that said I feel that the pond should fit the yard being in proportion.

[palsan]

Thanks for the input.

The yard is 50' wide by 32'-40' deep. I'm trying to keep the pond in front of the best viewing window from the house (the 32' end). I'm limited in the width available to the pond due to a kids play structure at the back of the yard (takes up 12' of the 32' depth). I've been told the kids enjoy it too much and it HAS TO STAY for at least 3 years! :roll: I can't wait that long. !rofl

The length and depth I can adjust. However, I don't want more filtration than the 2 55gal barrels + 70gal stock tank. Therefore, the volume of the pond can't be 'too big' for the filters. I guess the key question is: how much volume can the filters handle given a light to moderate fish load? The answer to that question will determine the volume of the pond and size of the pump.

Just to clarify - the total width for stream AND pond is 35', so the stream will be less than 20'.

I'm not sure about heron - perhaps someone can tell me if they are common in Markham?

[Louis]

to start with is there any concern of children being unattended around the pond? Are you close to the neighbours? Are then going to call the bylaw office?

Going deeper will leave room for Koi when your bitten harder!!

Have you considered a smaller 'head' pond just for plants/water garden at first, and a future stream into a larger Koi pond.

[Jackie Ramo]

I think the 2 barrels and stock tank will do a pond with a light fish load, its keeping the fish load light where most of us have a problem. The media chosen has a big influence as to the amount of filtraton you get.

Herons, well I had one come here and take 8 fancy goldfish and a few baby koi. I'm in Toronto just a couple of klicks from the lake.

[Terri]

Questions:
1. Can the 55gal barrels and 70gal biofilter support that kind of water flow? Depends on pipe work and fittings, go with 4" and your good as gold.
2. Can I get away with a 3" bottom drain or do I need 4"? Go 4", more flow re ?#1
3. How long does water have to be in the first barrel to give the solids enough time to settle? Ian or Luke or Graham could better answer this one.... will also depend on 'how' the water enters the barrel to create the vortex action. We run a SEQ 4200 low head pump on a 3 barrel system for a 2200 gallon tank, 1st chamber is settlement, water enters from the 4" bottom drain on a 45 degree angle(4"bulkhead with 4" 45*fitting) but has a 325 Answer unit.
4. What size pump do I need? Depends on what size pipe work you choose, minimum 3200 gph with 4" pipework in my 'humble' opinion.
5. Since the second barrel will have media it will have less than 50gals of water. Therefore, will the pump suck it dry? Not if you use the appropriate sized pipework in the proper placement. (criptic aren't I..? :-? )
6. How much waterflow can the biofilter support? Do I need to feed a direct line from the pump to the waterfall to support a 12" weir and 15'-20' stream? The more water flowing(turning over) through the bio the better - we use air for this to compensate for pump flow & also to minimize any (possible)settlement in the bio chamber. Depending on pump size you might be able to split the return flow, one to the stream and one to somewhere else(like a mid-level return or TRP as it's sometimes called)?
That leads back to questions 1-5.
7. I've read that limestone can be bad for fish. Does anyone know if the OS drywall will be harmful? Limestone messes with the pH of the water so it's not used around fish ponds if in contact with the water,... haven't a clue about the Owen Sound rock?


Have you thought about a surface skimmer?

Carpet is not the best choice for underlayment.

Where are our men who talk the techie stuff....?:frisbee:

[palsan]

Terri, thank you.

Since everyone seems to advise on 4" piping - that's what it will be! Too bad about the much higher cost on the 4" gate valve(s) :frisbee:

So, 4" PVC from bottom drain to first barrel entering about 1/3 from the bottom using a 45* on the inside of the barrel.

Next step is the connection between the two barrels. Assuming 4" PVC, what is best placement for the exit/entry points?

Assuming a 3200GPH pump, what is the best exit point for the water from the second barrel and what size should the pipe be? Excuse my ignorance, but 3200GPH seems really high. Does that mean that the pond can be as big as 3200gals?

I've thought about a surface skimmer but I was hopping I would not need one. How easy/difficult would it be to add one later?

If not carpet, what is the best (cheap) choice for underlayment?

The more questions that get answered the more questions I have ... :roll:

[luke frisbee]

Palsan,
first before I forget.
Yes a decent little skimmer can be added on later but put it in at the beginning. It is needed.

next right now Porous media showers seem to do the best job of filtration...a simple vortex settlement tank before the PMS pump is prudent.

If you think you may die from the pond bug...well I survived....themudpond.com. ....pond construction ...lakeluke :lol:

I am still alive

[Terri]

I am still alive :grin: That may be so but you are with holding your wisdom oh Great One :frisbee:

Assuming a 3200GPH pump, what is the best exit point for the water from the second barrel and what size should the pipe be? Excuse my ignorance, but 3200GPH seems really high. Does that mean that the pond can be as big as 3200gals?
4" all the way through to the end barrel/suction side of the pump (1.5" or 2" depending on pump choice).
Turnover rates are over rated :wink: At most you want volume turn over 3x/hr - less is more, you want that volume flowing through whatever bio you have at a good rate 1x/hr is great :grin: Also take into consideration the pipe work itself will reduce flow (friction loss, elbows, distance travelled, etc)

[luke frisbee]

Terri,
think about it (I posted this on another site). I firmly believe flow rate is important

I've repeatedly voiced opposition to the Bakki Media marketing ploy.
I have only used lava rock in a Porous media shower for 18 months. The "pond (3500 gallons)" has stayed clear since about two months after installation.
And I've mulled over (and over) why Porous media showers work.

SMG did a controlled experiment and has ALREADY determined that it isn't the VOODOO of FIR and that Lava rock does the same job.

What is at the heart of these porous media showers is the flow rates...
and god forbid that the people that got it worked out would say how PMS's work, because if they did, and it wasn't the media then they wouldn't make a bunch of money.

The FLOW RATE....tossing ALL the water in the pond over a bunch of sharp rocks twice an hour does stuff....slowly flowing the same water through the same media at a SLOW rate doesn't get the job done... ANY kind of media..expensive or stuff I can afford.
Simple reasoning is that THE FLOW is what makes this 'system work.

Now what parameter of the FLOW is described as needed?
I found it interesting that it wasn't a relation of gallons to cubic unit of media that is required but that the pond volume needs to go through the media 2x per hour.
and I sat and pondered...why.
My thoughts. Suspended particulate becomes larger particulate the longer they stay in calm water...even very tiny particulate "grows" if not put through a "smasher" like a PMS. So putting water through the PMS over two times an hour smashes the particulate into smaller peices quicker than the particulate can coalesce(sp) or grow. Smaller and smaller particulate that is ingested by the bacterias.

But what the bugs eat and how it all gets turned in to gases is... well something that I will pretend really happens like some other Hobbyisits and "Dealers" have explained...well sort of explained.
Bakki Showers work ONLY if the flow is correct. NOT because of magic of the media.

However I'd buy bakki media if it was the price of Lava rock

[Terri]

:grin: Now THAT is what I'm TALKIN' about Lukie my friend!!!


Oh, and I agree. The faster the water goes through bio (PMS or whatever) the better. But diversity within the system is also important,... never put all your eggs in one basket I think the saying goes.

BTW, my mistake, what I was thinking was 'dwell time' vs flow rate... been a long day :roll:

[palsan]

Terri said: "The faster the water goes through bio (PMS or whatever) the better"

I was under the impression (maybe from reading elsewhere) that if the water flowed through the media in the biofilter too fast the "good" bacteria would not have enough time to do their thing.

Luke said: "Simple reasoning is that THE FLOW is what makes this 'system work"

Is this also true for the mechanical filtration / settling chamber?

To go back to my original questions: How big a pond volume can be supported by a 55gal SC, a 55gal mechanical filter, and a 70gal biofilter? What size pump would be needed? and what is the best placement of pump and water inlet/outlets on the barrels???

palsan

[luke frisbee]

you need to rephrase the question in terms of fish load, food given, and expectations of fish growth and development.
A five gallon bucket can filter 100,000 gallons if you keep 2 koi in it and feed them am 0z of food a day.

[Ian]

Hi palsan,

We have these barrels below at http://www.backyardpuddle.com/diy/filter3/index.htm

Example of pipe to barrel placement
http://www.backyardpuddle.com/diy/filter3/thumbnails/barrels_01_jpg.jpg
Barrel #1 settlement. Inlet is near the top of the barrel but not too high, use a safety margin for evaporation and water change outs etc. - in gravity fed filters you don't want the inlet too low or you disrupt the settlement action - so the above half is best.
Barrel #2 is bio. Inlet placement again should be the above half.
Barrel #3 is mech(fines) + pump. Outlet in my barrel is 1/3 from the base of the barrel, 2" pipe.
http://www.backyardpuddle.com/diy/filter3/thumbnails/barrels_18_JPG.jpg

Flowrate of a barrel with 4" pipe connections can range from 4200 gph with the right 'toys'(or tools if you will) ...to just doing settlement in a barrel by itself at about 500 gph.

Flowrate at 4200 gph with THE 'toy' for mech/settlement
http://www.backyardpuddle.com/diy/filter3/thumbnails/barrels_16_JPG.jpg

What mech media do you plan to use? What is your choice for bio media? This info will be a determining factor in flowrate and filter design. First consideration should be feed rate to fish load(bio-load) of the system, if need be room to 'grow'.

[luke frisbee]

pat paulsen,
perhaps I am not the person to answer how many gallons a 55 gallon filter can handle...My Vortex chamber is 10.5 ft across and 7 ft high...8 4 inch bottom drains enter and a 6 inch pipe is the exit pipe to a 56 ft long filter chamber that is 39 inches across and 40 inches deep :lol:

[palsan]

"you need to rephrase the question in terms of fish load ...
A dozen Wakin

... food given, and expectations of fish growth and development."

Enough to keep them healthy and growing at a natural rate - not looking to raise champions.

What mech media do you plan to use?
I'm not sure yet, but it needs to be relatively cheep, easy to clean, and durable. Suggestions?

What is your choice for bio media?
Same as previous answer.

My Vortex chamber is 10.5 ft across and 7 ft high...8 4 inch bottom drains enter and a 6 inch pipe is the exit pipe to a 56 ft long filter chamber that is 39 inches across and 40 inches deep

Two thoughts:
1. Koi aren't that important to me!
2. Resale value! :wink:

[luke frisbee]

a dozen wakins...you'll be fine with whatever you make. Just flush the thing regularly, and if ya get green water fire up a UV.

And I have done just about everything like I have done my koi "pond". I've never done anything with "resale value" as part of the equation.

[Jackie Ramo]

Is this a guy bragging about size thing???

[Louis]

Jackie, it's a guy thing, like trying to bubble bio-balls in a 55 gal barrel, using 2 nine air stones...
wait, maybe there six inch stones...
thats why it's not working..

[Jackie Ramo]

Nothings working for me today Louis. Especially since the needed part is now behind the drywall under the sink....

[palsan]

Hi Jackie,

I like your pond and gardens. I'm trying for a set-up similar to yours.

However, from the photos, it appears that you have done everything wrong (as far as koi keepers go that is :wink: ).
1. Rocks at the bottom of the pond.
2. Plant shelves.
3. Plants all over the water.
4. Doesn't appear to be more than 4feet deep.
5. No sign of a skimmer.
6. Well landscaped yard with no massive filtration pits in sight.
What gives? :grin: I can't believe they let you post here. :grin:

Anyway, all kidding aside, how do you do it? What sort of set-up do you have (max depth, filtration, pump, #of fish, etc.)

[Jackie Ramo]

Truly, I've been doing wrong for 15 years and taking the heat for it :wink: Thanks for the compliments.

The pond is 5,000 and is 4'9" deep in the middle. There is no bottom drain and most of the rocks have been removed from the bottom. There is indeed a skimmer where the submerged pump sits. The pump is 3600 /hr and is undersized for the pond but bigger than the original that was 2700. The skimmer is hidden behind the plants.

This is an ADI pond or Aquascapes as they are marketed as. The only filtration is the biofalls which has been upgraded from lava rock to bioballs and netting. It has 4 mats under the bio that act as mechanical. The biofalls are designed to do everything, settling chamber, mechanical and bio all in one small package :roll:

There are 12 large koi and a bunch of babies (36 at last count but I keep seeing new ones) All these babies and a couple of the big guys have to go this spring. I will probably keep 2 or 4 of the babies that are cuter than the rest but no room at the inn so to speak to keep more and even those have to have a larger fish removed so I can keep them. Also Ian has a nice cow fish for me so room has to be made for him.

As for how do I do it, diligently and its work. Water changes, vaccuuming the bottom etc. Each year I threaten to upgrade the filtration and each year some other project takes over, this year I suspect it will be the 2nd pond for the wakin Terri is holding for me. I do bring out the filtration that runs the inside pond, a tt and a store bought barrel filter thing. I also don't over feed as the filters can't take it. I'm sure my fish would be even bigger if I fed them the recommended amounts. But they are big enough for me and no matter how much food I throw in there, it is never enough to them.

[luke frisbee]

I only thought of the size in relation to what i wanted to do....and what I didn't want to do...I wanted to raise big good koi and not have to worry about them dying during or after a hurricane. :-P

[palsan]

I also don't over feed as the filters can't take it. I'm sure my fish would be even bigger if I fed them the recommended amounts

I've read that koi tend to 'destroy' any plants in a pond. Given that you don't "over feed", do the fish 'destroy' the plants?

How often do you have to clean the biofilter?

By "water changes" what do you mean? how much water at a time and how frequently?

[Jackie Ramo]

Like Luke I only thought about what I wanted when I designed the pond and the fish have had to work around it. Mind I did consider them with depth, at the time it was built most ponds were 3-4 ft, now 6 is getting more common, but I'd hate to fall in, I'm not a good swimmer.

Fish need a varied diet and I think that those only fed pellets will trash the plants looking for the food their bodies tell them they need. Given a varied diet of fresh food and veggies along with pellets they tend to leave the plants pretty much alone, but the second scret is lots of plants <LOL> That way if tey do trash one, you hardly miss it. Does mess up the skimmer though.

Starting any time now I will clean the biofalls monthly. Its not that bad. Manufacturer suggests yearly but they are not dealing with a full deck. The water chages are weekly from now on or if I have to miss a week a larger change is made the next one. 10% or a bit more or less. I'm not fanatic about it just that it gets done. I use the pond water to water the garden and then fill up the pond with tap water. Often they will by accident get a larger water change and at least once during the spring/summer a 50% water change.

[palsan]

It finally happened - I've started spending $$$. :smile:

I picked up two 4" closet flanges and 90* (both sched 40) to connect my 55gal filter barrels. When I put the two together the fit is VERY loose (compared to the fit for the sched 80 pipe), is this normal or did I get bad parts? If they are normally loose will they seal properly when glued?

I've read about uniseals as a good alternative to bulkhead fittings. Has anyone tried them? How is the seal? Are they available locally (Toronto area)?

If I can't find them I may use 2" male & female electrical type PVC connectors for the bottom drains of the barrels and the outflow to the pump.

palsan

[Cinnamon]

Palsan electrical PVC is schedule 40. The only diffence is that it is gray not white. So either should work. With my experience the fittings shouldn't be too loose or you won't get a good seal. Maybe you cross matched the schedules. I would try another fitting.

Pam

[palsan]

The ones that are loose are the white sched 40's - 4" closet flange to 90* angle. I bought them at Rona - I couldn't find them at Home Depot.

[Louis]

The black closed drains are ABS
the white PVC, check to make sure....
when matching the 2 you will need a 'shim' (usually white)
and connection cement for ABS/PVC joints.

white to white PVC glue/solvent
black to black ABS glue/solvent
there is a special glue/solvent for mixing the types..

[Jackie Ramo]

So where is the update???? :frisbee:

[palsan]

The digging will probably start next week.

Called a few disposal companies for bins to get rid of about 14 yards of soil ... 300 bucks plus tax ... ouch! (maybe I should wait for the GST reduction :smile: )

[Jackie Ramo]

Look in the paper for someone looking for clean fill, they might supply the bin.In Toronto there is no dumping fee for clean fill (dirt) but you do have to rent the bin, also try home depot, our local one rents them out and picks them up.

[palsan]

Thanks Jackie,

Home Depot (actually the company licenced by them to use the HD name on the orange bins) only supplies 4 yard bins for clean fill. They have larger bins but the small trucks they use can't handle the weight if they are filled with the 'clean fill' - at least that's what they told me last year when I got rid of clean fill from digging fence post holes.

I'm personally avoiding HD due to very shoddy work they did on windows installed a while ago and the way they handled the problem when I brought it to their attention :-x so, I would not use them even if they had the bigger bins. :-P

[Jackie Ramo]

Well, frankly I wouldn't use HD to install anything but our local guys did ok with the bin, dropped it off and picked it up, really hard work :frisbee: Ours was construction so no clean fill rates for us.

[palsan]

One of the pond builders I've spoken to advocates pouring a concrete "collar" around the pond for support of the rock edging and to help prevent cave-ins.

The concrete is poured in a trench around the edge of the pond before digging the hole. Once the concrete dries: the hole is dug; the edge of the liner is placed over the concrete; the first course of stone is placed on top of the liner; the liner comes over the back of the stone; and another course of stone is put on top.

Since the concrete is only a few inches deep, and about a foot wide, I asked him if it would crack in the winter (it's not below the frost line). He says no - may be true with rebar? Intuitively what he is doing makes sense. Does anyone have an opinion :confused:

One of my fears is cave-ins :shock: - especially near my barrel filters/pump box (these will be burried only 2-3 feet from the pond) and bridge.

If the concrete in fact works, it solves my problem, if not, it is a waste of time and money.

[Terri]

Some do some don't... depends on soil type... but it is a good idea over all. I believe Ian discussed something similar - how & why to do this in another thread (somewhere in this section, maybe one of newbie's threads - search 'trench pour').

[luke frisbee]

Palsan,
No brainer...concrete collar with rebar...make the walls neat....board or cardboard. Definitely use rebar...nothing big...something like 3/8ths inch...easy to form

[palsan]

First attempt at posting pics of backyard before digging begins ...

Waterfall to start at the left and stream to flow to the right
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Pond003.jpg

Pond area on the right. Bridge to go from 'v' across in direction of purple chair. Barrel filters to go under bridge/deck at edge of sandbox.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Pond004.jpg

Play area to stay for a few more years ... to be replaced by sitting area and more plants. I would really like to replace the brick with flagstone BUT two problems: cost of flagstone and cost to get rid of brick :(

[Jackie Ramo]

Brick is easy to get rid of aroundhere, just set it in the drive with a sign that says free and it will be gone by the end of the day. Lots of good uses for brick,one or many.

[luke frisbee]

That brick is something I find attractive about your yard area. Please don't waste the money on flagstone to replace it.
However there is something you can do....
I have seen gardens where the area close to the house is formal but as you go further from the house the yard becomes more "natural" by reducing the amount and number of formal materials. It can be quite well done.

[Peg]

Hi All
Just wanted to add my two cents worth about the concrete ring. I have concidered doing the same thing. Two people I know and trust have both said the same thing. We live in a country that experiances frost. And any kind of work done with concrete above the frost line will and can move 2-4 inches in one winter. You may be ok for a year or two but if you have a year were we get alot the concreate can rise and with that so does the liner. which inturn can rip as the water will want to stay in place as the wall goes up. In the end it my be more trouble then its worth. Its a good idea if you live south and have no frost. It was suggested that if that was the way I wanted to go I should dig down to the frost line, put in the footings and block up. More cost to start but less hassle in the long run. Dont mean to be a downer :( but I would hate to see you have to do it over again in a few years. Call and talk to your local concrete contractors and get thier opinion (its free) time and material are not.

[palsan]

Dont mean to be a downer :( but I would hate to see you have to do it over again in a few years.
You're not being a downer at all. The cold climate is exactly why I thought the concrete would break over time. The reason I asked the question is that this pond builder has been doing it this way around Toronto for years and claims he has not encountered any problems. I just wanted to know if anyone in zone 5 has any experience with such an installation.

That brick is something I find attractive about your yard area.
The problem with it is that it has faded alot. I like brick - just not the colour of this one. :frisbee: In any case, I will leave it for now and see how it works once the rest of the landscaping is in.

I'm also planning to replace the green gazebo 'thing' (canvas top still in the shed) with a cedar pergola and the picnic table with a better patio set to go in front of the pond area. Depending on the cost of the pond, one or both may have to wait until next spring. :roll:

[Peg]

Maybe you could ask the pond builder for 3-5 customers numbers and if they are close by you could call to see his work and ask how long the pond have in installed for and if they have had any problems with them.

[Peg]

If the response is good let me know. I really would like to stick to my original plan.

[Ian]

I don't do the concrete ring thing if it means anything to ya. Waste of money with most soil applications. When I think you need concrete it should go below frost and not just a surface pour. Heck I had no problems with sand.

[Jackie Ramo]

I've not used concrete either and have no difficulties. Mine is a large river rock edge so to me more difficult to set in place but once done, no movement.

[palsan]

I did some further thinking about the concrete collar idea. Concrete sidewalks are commom practice in northern climates. The concrete is only a few inches thick and is poured at surface level (not below the frost line). So, why don't most of them crack? There must be an easy explanation. The ones that do not crumble must be done right - but how do you do it right?

Here is what I came up with after a quick internet search ...
http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/cbd/cbd116_e.html

The critical factor in frost damage, as in most potentially destructive processes involving concrete, is the moisture condition of the material ... The moisture content of concrete is the most critical factor of frost damage for those elements subject to freeze-thaw cycling ... Recommended practice for producing concrete highly resistant to the severest exposures of frost ... Air-entrained concrete for severe exposures should be of the 3500- to 4500-psi class. Water-cement ratio should not exceed 0.45 ... etc.

So, if done right, the risk of cracking due to severe frost can be greatly reduced by:
a) using the right type of cement,
b) mixing the ingredients (cement, aggregate, and water) in the correct proportions,
c) using the right technique when pouring it, and,
d) allowing the curing process to proceed slowly (ideally when the temperature is moderate)! !dude

Therefore, the pond builder is probably using the right technique after all. And if not, since the concrete is covered up and out of sight, who would know?

Well ... before deciding to pour a collar or not I'll have to discuss it with my dad (a retired construction worker that has poured alot of concrete over the years).

[Ian]

If you go with a collar, order the cement 32mpa,with air, 3" slump. This is a cement mix for exposure to frost. Not exposed to frost 25mpa, no air, still 3" slump.
The reason a lot of sidwalks cracks is
1) bad cement (add water changing 3" slump to 2 or less....easy to pour wet)
2) soil conditions
3) no expansion joints (concrete will expand and contract)
4) no rebar or steel mesh
That is why you see 8" to 12 " of granular "A" gravel compacted to 98% before cement is poured.
If you dig the collar and the soil is good to put cement right on top, you do not need the collar and you are increasing your cost of construction. If your soils are bad and lots of ground water to deal with making the walls of the newly dug pond slid in.....then you have to worry about the undermining the collar.
I have engineers check all soils, test concrete on all poured cement on all of my big jobs. Not one has ever let me pour on top of soil or dirt that was not suited.
Just by the picture of your backyard tells me hard ground with clay. Your east of missisauga/oakville.

[Ta2ude]

You also need to be sure you have a good base to pour the cement on. You need to remove all the topsoil and any loose soil and put down a base of gravel to allow for drainage. The base needs to be compacted as well for best results. The better job you do preparing the base the better results you will have.

All sidewalks have expansion joints in them as well and grooves cut in them to provide a "weak" spot for them to crack if any movement occurs. If you take a walk you WILL see that many sections of sidewalks have heaved due to frost. Some crack and others move around.


Ian just beat me with his post.

[Ian]

Thats why I don't see the collar being worth the money or the effort. You have to replace the soil under with gravel. Very similar to your brick paving. Depends on what you plan for the edging of the pond. Formal brick raised would need footings and foundations below frost as bricks don't take well to frost. A tiled edge or materials that need to be secured have to be on a structure such as a conrete collar.
I was not sure on the stability of our soil(being sand) for the walls of our pond. Was not sure if cave in's was going to be a problem. Dug out and working for a few weeks it was like moulding castles in a sand box. Rained a few times no problem...
http://www.backyardpuddle.com/build/2004/images/2004_07_jpg.jpg

lay down a liner...fill with water..The sand was thrown around the ponds edge raising the level. Water acts as your level as you complete edge.
http://www.backyardpuddle.com/build/2004/images/2004_40_jpg.jpg

http://www.backyardpuddle.com/build/2004/images/2004_39_jpg.jpg
The edging of our pond was rocks. I used brick mortor on top of the liner with the rocks as a collar of sorts. Very easy and cheap also with the option of other materials with the same method
http://www.backyardpuddle.com/build/2004/images/2004_42_jpg.jpg

[palsan]

Very good points Ian and Ta2ude, thank you very much for the input. Yes my soil has a high clay content.

Here is a rough sketch of the current plan ... subject to change. Bottom drain with 4" pipe to first 55gal barrel. 4" pipe to second barrel. pipe to pump (orange) contained in box below ground. Pump to 70gal stocktank biofilter feeding waterfal onto stream back to pond. The brown outline will be a bridge to hide the barrel filters. The stone along the fence will be used to line the pond and a retaining wall to hold up the soil on the side of the waterfall.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Pondproject.jpg

[palsan]

Ok, so I understand how gunk goes from the pond to the settling chamber: bottom drain connected to in-ground barrel via 4" pipe with a knife valve before entering barrel - gravity does the work. What I can't figure out is an easy way of getting said gunk out of the bottom of the barrel.

If the bottom of the barrel is 3 feet in the ground, plus about 6 inches for the shower drain/90* angle/ball valve set-up, what's is the next step? Is there an easy way to use gravity or do I need some sort of mechanical device to get the gunk back to ground level?

In addition, can the gunk be used in the garden as fertilizer?

[luke frisbee]

I have a sump pit inwhich the "gunk" is removed...by a bottom drain in the vortex.
I also have a sump pump that blows the gunk onto the roots of the mango trees.

[palsan]

Da big dig finally under way.

Day 1
5 hours work, progress: about 20%, best part: dad helped and didn't say I was nuts (but I know he was thinking it as we were picking at the gravel in the top two feet of 'top soil').
Normal people go to Florida on vacation ... I dig holes. :lol:
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Pond019.jpg

The seedlings along the fence are for the front yard when the tulips and dafodils die off ...
Stone work not finished yet ... Door frame to paint ... pond to build ... :rolleyes: So many projects so little time (and money).
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/May3001.jpg

[Jackie Ramo]

Nice magnolia! Yes same here, too may projects, not enough time and way to little money. At least your dad helps out, mine moved out of town to avoid the work.

[palsan]

Nice magnolia!

Best flowers in 5 years. :) Probably because of the mild winter and warm spring.

My dad is retired now but worked as a construction worker for 25 years, so he enjoys this type of project, albeit at a slower pace than he was capable of some years ago. :frisbee:

[Ta2ude]

Do yourself a favour and get a large pick-axe it will loosen up the dirt/rocks/clay a lot quicker and easier than a shovel.

[palsan]

Do yourself a favour and get a large pick-axe it will loosen up the dirt/rocks/clay a lot quicker and easier than a shovel.

We had one yesterday, my dad is bringing a better one today.

[palsan]

Day 2
Hours worked: 8
Progress: about 80% of hole complete
Still to do: fix-up the perimiter, Dig deeper toward the purple bottom drain, dig more near barrels, dig pit for barrel filters and pump, dig hole for bio-filter at falls, dig trenches for drains.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Day2-002.jpg
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Day2-01.jpg

[Peg]

You really seem to be making good progress. I wish I was that far along.

[Jackie Ramo]

Gee, can I borrow your Dad???? :grin:

Looking very good.

[palsan]

Day 3
4 hours worked - no pictures.
Hit water at about 3.5' while digging the hole for the first barrel filter. Luckily I planned for 3.5' to be the deepest part of the pond (bottom drain placement) and there is no water coming up at that point - although the ground is a bit "mushy". This has me a worried.

Took the afternoon off to visit the backyard puddle and picked up the pump while there (Sequence 750 - model 4200). Terri, thanks for the hospitality. Great ponds and fish!

Just as I was heading to Newcastle found treasure at the curb (gotta love garbage days when you're builing something) - uncut carpet underpadding - perfect for under my liner. :)

Picked up a bottom drain and 4" gate valve (what a monster) from Clarke Koi Ponds. I was going to buy the W Lim drain but didn't like the fact that you have to drill your own holes in the dome and flange - it makes no sense that a consumer product doesn't come with pre-drilled holes. !grrrr Therefore, I bought a cheaper one ($80 bucks less) which will be easier to install and although the design is not as efficient as the Lim it will do just fine for my purposes. Ian, I like your diy design but decided to spend the extra $100 instead of building my own dome. :wink:

Also bought other plumbing and electrical fittings at the other (Canadian) home reno warehouse - better selection and more helpfull staff than the big orange. Of course, I never seem to get everything I need in one trip so I'll be going back - probably several times. !rofl

Day 4
7 hours worked: spent the day sculpting the walls, leveling the edge, and digging the trench for the bottom drain and pipe. Hole ready to install bottom drain. I'll have to measure again but it looks like I missed the 20' width for the liner by 2-3 inches. Bummer, I hope the fish enjoy those extra 2-3 inches, they're going to cost me 2-3 cases of beer!!!

I don't think I could fit another shovel full in the 14 yard bin! I will have to use the soil from digging the biofilter / waterfall for back filling the barrels.

In retrospect, I should have leveled the ground and done a concrete collar before starting to dig - it would have given me a cleaner edge and made it easier to lay my (flat) stones on top of the liner.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Day4-03.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Day4-04.jpg

[palsan]

Rain ... rain ... go ... away ...

Rain good for plants - not good for pond building!
Project on hold for now. Liner, barrels, pump, pipes, valves, and other junk all over garage floor waiting for rain to stop :-x (Hate parking car in driveway :-x )

Confirmation of water table at bottom of hole is that water is not being absorbed into the ground - not enough evaporation happening either. I'll have to use sump pump when rain stops. SHOULD HAVE COVERED THE HOLE WITH A TARP BEFORE THE RAIN STARTED. :roll:

Speaking of sump pumps ... I'm not sure the one I bought (similar to this one: http://www.rona.ca/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&storeId=10001&langId=-1&selectItemId=&parentCategoryId=0&categoryId=11307&catentryList=&productId=63197) will be able to pump out the solids out of the sump pit. It has a float valve to automatically turn it on and draws water from the bottom through approx 3/16" square holes.

I will have both filter barrels' bottom drains connected to pit. With the main pump in a covered box above the sump pit, the sump pump will ensure that if I have any leaks, or any major rain, the main pump will not be flooded.

Any suggestions on the best (affordable) type of sump pump to use?

[Jackie Ramo]

I'm not sure the one you bought will pump out the muck in the bottom. There is a type of pump called a trash pump that is good for that kind of work. My sumps are similar to the one you have but mine takes a garden hose so is even less likely to handle large debris.

[palsan]

Who needs a liner when you have clay? :roll:

Is this what they mean by "mud pond"?
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/May16001.jpg

[Jackie Ramo]

Yes definately a mud pond.... how frustrating and week more of it....

[palsan]

Day 5/6

After ten days of rain I was hoping to get alot done over the long weekend. Well, the three day weekend brought not only more rain but COLD. Managed to accomplish one day's worth of work.

While it rained I built the pump box using 2"x10" presure treated lumber - probably overkill but the alternatives would have been either a concrete box or PT plywood both of which would have been more expensive.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Day5-01.jpg

Time will tell if it was the right decision but I started near the end of the circuit ... Put in sump pit - used a fiberglass 30" high round barrel that is normally used for ___ (fill in blank because I'm not sure). It was fairly expensive ($53+tax) but the alternative was to build a concrete box. That would have been more work and probably higher cost anyway. Used electrical conduit male/female fittings to connect the bottom drains from the two filter barrels - sealed on the inside with GE silicone II. An automatic sump pump will go inside the fiberglass barrel and the main pump box will sit over the sump pit. Putting the pump box over the sump pit will ensure the pump will stay dry in case of a leak or major rain storm.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Day6-01.jpg

Second barrel (not sure yet what I will use as mechanical filtration but for the time being I'm thinking brushes). Shower drain at bottom - sealed with 3M marine 5200 sealant. 4" pipe to bring water from settling chamber. I used a uniseal as the bulkhead fitting (pipe slipped in too far but I will leave it and connect a 45* pointing slightly downward). 2" pipe to take water to pump. I used electrical conduit fittings.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Day6-04.jpg

4" pipe to access the gate valve connecting barrel bottom drain to sump pit.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Day6-05.jpg

Outside of barrel ...
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Day6-08.jpg

Next step, connect settling chamber (to the right on the last pic) to sump pit, second barrel, and bottom drain.

[Jackie Ramo]

How is this coming along now? Since I'm about to start construction of a filter myself I'm actually reading the construction threads :roll:

Question: Don't all those twists and turns in the plumbing for you pump slow down the pressure? Terri has me considering a outside rather than submersible pump but it looks complicated.

[palsan]

How is this coming along now? Since I'm about to start construction of a filter myself I'm actually reading the construction threads :roll:
Very slowly - between the rain and the World Cup I can't seem to get any work done :roll: ... last weekend I put in the bottom drain and hooked up the filter barrels. Taking off two days this week to hook up the pump box and put the liner in.

Question: Don't all those twists and turns in the plumbing for you pump slow down the pressure? Terri has me considering a outside rather than submersible pump but it looks complicated.
Yes, but I had to do it that way in order to keep the ball vaves inside as compact a box as possible.

[Jackie Ramo]

Thanks for the explanation. Send rain, we need it.

[palsan]

Day #lost count :lol:

Theres stuff in them thar holl ... and for once ... it's not rain water. !dude
So far ~1,250 gallons with ~8" more water still to go.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Jun24-05.jpg

Some stonework still necessary to raise the far end about 8" above ground (which is sloped slightly toward that side of the backyard. As I mentioned in an earlier post, a leveled concrete "collar" - although probably not necessary for structural reasons in my case - would have made it MUCH easier to lay the stone!
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Jun24-06.jpg

View from filter barrels and pump/sump pit box ...
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Jun24-01.jpg

[palsan]

Hooked up a temporary return to the pond and turned the pump on ... it works. :smile:

Question: How much can the outflow be restricted (by partially closing the ball valve) without hurting/overheating the pump?

[palsan]

Sent an e-mail to MDM inc (makers of Sequence pumps) and received the following response:

You can restrict the flow on the discharge as much as you want without hurting the pump. The only thing that you do not want to do is restrict the flow on the intake. Please let me know if you have any other questions or concerns.

Thanks,

Brian Maldonado
Sales/Tech Support

[Jackie Ramo]

Sometimes the best answers come from going to the source. I'm out of habit writing to manufacturers but used to do it a lot. Always replied quite quickly. Now I wonder if this is true for all pumps...

[Ian]

Restricting the flow on the return line with a ball valve is like adding head pressure to your pump. While this increases energy use ever so slightly it will not hurt the pump. A tall water fall that water would have to pump up to creates head pressure for every foot above water level and acts like a valve also. Like Brian mentioned never restrict the intake of a pump as this will damage it.

[Hugo]

Who needs a liner when you have clay? :roll:

Is this what they mean by "mud pond"?
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/May16001.jpg


Yeah, it looks just like this! :smile:

[palsan]

Finished the plumbing for the biofilter-waterfall on the weekend. Added 6 goldfish (wakin), water lillies, and iris to the pond. Still to do ... put down liner and stone for the stream.

MUST get it working SOOOOOOON - the water is so green that pea soup will soon become a mainstay of our diet. :grin:

I still have not decided on the filter media (see other thread).
Should I be adding bacteria to get the filter "started" in order to control the green water?

[Jackie Ramo]

With or without bacteria the filter will take 4- 6 weeks to mature... if colder 6-8 weeks.

[palsan]

With or without bacteria the filter will take 4- 6 weeks to mature... if colder 6-8 weeks.

So, I guess what you're saying is that I should use the $bucks for the fish rather than the bacteria? :grin:

[Jackie Ramo]

A good filter and the proper fish load will cure green water. Now for ponds like mine without bottom drains and with rocks sludge eaters are a necessary expense. But they don't do much for green water.

[palsan]

A good filter and the proper fish load will cure green water.

Define a "good" filter ... :)

[Jackie Ramo]

Oh you'll have to ask Terri or Ian that. Certainly not what I have for my fish load :roll: A 3 stage of settlement, mechanical and bio along with a TT should do it. I forget the percentage of water the filter system should hold but there is math to it.

[dcny]

Define a "good" filter ... :)
A system with enough mechanical filtration to take out all the floating, settling, and suspended debris that your pond produces, and bio filtration to convert all the ammonia and nitrite that all your fish produce. :grin:

-Dan

[palsan]

A system with enough mechanical filtration ...

So ... define "enough". :lol:

[dcny]

So ... define "enough". :lol:
so that all of it is gone.... ok, so that may be impossible, let's settle for 99%. :lol:

[palsan]

The whole system is FINALLY RUNNING !!!!! :smile: :smile: :smile: Keeping my fingers crossed and waiting for the green water to clear up.
Next on the agenda ... a) another trip to the stone yard for river rock in order to finish the stream, and b) ALOT of landscaping to do.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/July9001.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/July9003.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/July9006.jpg

[Jackie Ramo]

!strut Woo HOO Bet there was dancing when that water started flowing!!! Looking good.

[palsan]

!strut Woo HOO Bet there was dancing when that water started flowing!!! Looking good.

Yea, especially the kids.

[Terri]

Very nice :) I can see where the girls like to sit :wink:


Ok, Pond Opening Party at palsans :smile: BYOB :twisted:

[palsan]

Thank you for the kind words.


Ok, Pond Opening Party at palsans
Not ready for an "opening party" yet - still have alot of work to do. Including:

1. river rock to cover liner in stream
2. install permanent gfci electrical connection
3. trim bits of liner that can still be seen
4. build bridge to cover barrel filters
5. beg for some fish donations :wink:
6. replace "temporary" store bought "tent" with permanent cedar pergola
7. cover bare soil with plants, plants, and more plants

Come to think of it I'll nerver be finished so a party sounds like a good idea! !rofl

[Jackie Ramo]

I'm a firm believer in having parties during renovations. How else will people know how hard you worked or what you went through to achieve the finished product. And one never knows, one of the guests may have connections for cheap stuff or have stuff they don'tneed or brother is an electrician.... Don't think they will pick up a shovel or a paint brush though.... not my friends or family anyway.

[palsan]

It happened ... the power went off yesterday during the thunderstorm. :mad:

With the power out, the biofilter/waterfall stock tank nearly emptied. While I'm not too concerned about the pond during brief outages, the floating plants and filter media can't go dry. Therefore, I have to install a check valve somewhere between the pump and the biofilter.

I considered electrical issues, however, I forgot about the water flowing back from the high of the waterfall to pond level. Duh !wow!

[Jackie Ramo]

Also to remember to clean the check valve regularily, darn caddish fly larvae love to build nests in there and stop it from closing... Ball valves are good but you have to be there to turn them.

[palsan]

The whole system is FINALLY RUNNING !!!!! Keeping my fingers crossed and waiting for the green water to clear up.
Next on the agenda ... a) another trip to the stone yard for river rock in order to finish the stream, and b) ALOT of landscaping to do.

Back from a week at the cottage (rented) and to my surprise ... almost clean water. :grin: I can now see about 3 feet down ... another week and I should be able to see the bottom. While I have a VERY light fish load (5 Wakins) it is very encouraging to know the system appears to be working.

I had such withdrawl while on vacation that I had to order the river rock to be delivered the day I got back. :grin:

On the landscaping issue ... picked a few water plants from the lake. It's amazing the stuff we have to buy in the "Big City" - plants that grow wild in every ditch!!! :frisbee:

[Jackie Ramo]

Just remember to sterilize the plants before adding them to the pond. 10% bleach should do it or a nice PP treatment.

[palsan]

This past weekend I built and installed a bridge to cover the barrel filters and pump pit (still need some sort of railing between the posts).

All that remains is a permanent electrical connection, landscaping around the pond, and ongoing maintenance. :grin:

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Bridge003.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Bridge002.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h250/pondmaster/Bridge001.jpg

Speaking of maintenance ... I have a problem with a gate valve connected to the bottom drain of one of my barrel filters - while doing a water change last week the handle slipped off the stainless steel shaft. The following post explains the problem:
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47033
No one has been able to come up with a good solution over there, so, if anyone on this board can help I would be very grateful. :-)

[Jackie Ramo]

Pond looks terrific. Sorry no help with plumbing things.

[dcny]

Palsan,

Can you see end of the shaft? Do you know if the shaft is threaded or not? If it's threaded you can get an extension shaft, attach a female connector to it and screw it on the current one. If it's a slip on type, were you able to get the original handle out? If so maybe you can apply some strong glue to the handle and place it back on the shaft. if you're lucky, after the glue dries you may be able to pull it back up.

What brand of gate valve did you use? I don't think the easy reach gadget will work.

-Dan